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Bloodlines 2: Curb your enthusiasm

I guess it’s just one of those things that people will always be divided on.
Yes, lazy writing filled with ideological screeching is a surprisingly divisive issue...

If you actually played and enjoyed the first Bloodlines, the things the writers are saying about this iteration should make your skin crawl. The original was a dark, complex world where good and evil were two sides of the same coin, and choices rarely boiled down to binary choice of choosing to do right or wrong. But now they are saying they have to tone down certain parts because how we talk about mental illness has changed? I'm pretty sure the mental illness part was everybody's favorite thing from the original!
 

Teslerum

Member
Yes, lazy writing filled with ideological screeching is a surprisingly divisive issue...

If you actually played and enjoyed the first Bloodlines, the things the writers are saying about this iteration should make your skin crawl. The original was a dark, complex world where good and evil were two sides of the same coin, and choices rarely boiled down to binary choice of choosing to do right or wrong. But now they are saying they have to tone down certain parts because how we talk about mental illness has changed? I'm pretty sure the mental illness part was everybody's favorite thing from the original!

Tourette was an amazing charachter.
 

ThatGamingDude

I am a virgin
This is kind of par for the course for V:TM

"The themes that the game seeks to address include retaining the character's sense of self, humanity, and sanity, as well as simply keeping from being crushed by the grim opposition of mortal and supernatural antagonists and, more poignantly, surviving the politics, treachery, and often violent ambitions of their own kind. "

Yes, they do mean politics as in their own social politics, but that doesn't mean the kindred can't climb into politics for their coven and making things interesting for a vidya game.

Let it speak for itself when it's actually speaking; game isn't even out yet, let it come out and then we'll get to see if they do it in an interesting V:TM sort of way, or if they just shill.
 

Dontero

Banned
The devs are free to make their game political and customers are free to make their purchase decision and/or critique based off of it ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Pretty much.

I don't see how they can even make a good game where creators views have moved fundamentally so much over the years. I mean game will not include Malkavian aka the best class and the most fun from Bloodlines because it apperently speaks bad about mental illness.

This is World of Darkness, game about scums and underworld where killing someone just to fuck his corpse is the norm.
 

Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
But vTM Bloodlines already dealt with politics as well. Stop grabbing those pitchforks yall

There is a difference between something being political and someone using it as a stepping board to push their very specific ideologies. Given one of the writers, people are worried it is the latter.
 

ThatGamingDude

I am a virgin
I wouldn't be surprised if they have that writer and use it to make some of the clans/houses/what-have-you annoyingly over political, and less for pushing some sort of weird agenda

This is about vampires, not mole men
 

cr0w

Old Member
If there were any game these themes and choices belonged in, it's Vampire. Given its roots in pen and paper and the specificity people put into their own characters, it wouldn't make sense for it not to include pretty much any option imaginable for your character creation, nor would it make sense for a game set in the supernatural world to not have some "progressive" themes because it's on the fringes of society and an allegory for people who are considered "different".

Frankly I'd be more surprised if they didn't explore these themes.
 

Teslerum

Member
There is a difference between something being political and someone using it as a stepping board to push their very specific ideologies. Given one of the writers, people are worried it is the latter.

Not just the writer in specific, but because of the statements of the other writers as well that talk about current year, that its not ok to *punch down* anymore and that the portrayals of mental illness in the original game were bad (they weren't) make one worried.

BLOODLINES 1 already explored these themes. And it did it masterfully. Critizizing that and talking about not offending people rings all sorts of alerts.
 
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Madonis

Member
There is almost no specific information about the content itself in any of these previews. Just a lot of vague commentary that is open to interpretation. The glass can be both half empty and half full.

Vampire: The Masquerade has always been political and, well, not exactly conservative in neither tone nor subject matter. For instance, vampires have historically been a metaphor for both unrestricted sex itself as well as for "unorthodox" forms of sexual behavior. I think some people around here are forgetting that. So yes, there can be openly gay vampires and it would be entirely suitable for this context.

I believe the game isn't going to suddenly sanitize the themes and contents of Bloodlines, but will likely add characters with, for example, various sexual identities and orientations, as implied by the brief character creator talk. Which is fine, I'd say, because players should have the maximum possible amount of choices for the purpose of roleplaying. The world is big enough to contain all sorts of non-playable characters too. Which don't need to be limited to the rather small pool of named characters that existed in Bloodlines.

I've heard that Malkavians are still in the game. They might try to change some of the details of their dialogue and presentation, in order to not unnecessarily offend people with a real life mental illness, but I doubt they'll be impossible to recognize or identify as Malkavian. The writers aren't stupid, to say the least.
 

120v

Member
well i'd rather them be upfront about it, game releases and you know what you're getting, no insipid "controversies" like where people are astounded games such as far cry 5, division 2 ect aren't a searing indictiment on trumpism or whatever

didn't play a lot of the first game but seemed like the "politics" were bespoke to that 'universe'. my armchair quarterback take is maybe make something new from the ground up if you want to expound on that stuff, but who knows, maybe it'll work here
 
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ZehDon

Member
... I mean game will not include Malkavian aka the best class and the most fun from Bloodlines because it apperently speaks bad about mental illness...
Can I get your source on Malkavian's not being in the game please?
 
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GreenAlien

Member
So.. this game will be about SJW vampires sucking the fun out of everything?

Might be interesting to play a real bad guy for once.

(not serious)
 
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MagiusNecros

Gilgamesh Fan Annoyance
Already curbing my enthusiasm since it's just a CG trailer and has no gameplay footage to offer.

Plus IMO it was announced way too early. Q1 2020 tentative release announced in Q1 2019.

Makes me wonder if there will be a playable build at E3.

Expectations set to low.

CG smoke and mirror trailers have long lost their meaning to me.
 

Kadayi

Banned
fine make it political if you want to, but if it's grossly one sided i'm gonna laugh my ass off

Indeed. If it's a case of two sides of the same coin, I'm not going to be particularly impressed.

Still, I'll reserve judgement until we see some actual game-play footage. I'm glad that it's basically seeing a revival but at the same time I'm not interested in the typically myopic binary nature of what constitutes political commentary in most media today, so I think the odds of a mid tier RPG delivering a nuanced take are pretty unlikely truth be told. There's enough inherent complexity to delivering narrative successfully in games as is, let alone managing to do it without wearing your heart on your sleeve from the off.
 
Hardsuit Labs, formerly known as Zombie Studios before they went bankrupt.

This is their catalogue.

https://www.metacritic.com/company/zombie-studios

This might as well just be as much Bloodlines as Bioware is """""""""Bioware""""""""" in 2019.

giphy.gif
 

ZehDon

Member
I found the interviews with Martin Ka’ai Clooney, who is the creative director developer, pretty illuminating.
vg247.com link.
web archive link.
The pathetically sensationalist and click bait headline of "Vampire: The Masquerade – Bloodlines 2: “It’s definitely taking political stances on what we think are right and wrong”" feels like misrepresentation by the writer of the article, as it has virtually nothing to do with the content of the interview, and is not an accurate reflection of what Clooney actually talks about.

Some choice quotes:
... Clooney says it’s central to Bloodlines 2 that the writers ... are actively taking a political stance in this sequel, with its themes of art versus commerce and technological advances versus tradition.
“One of the reasons why that particular conflict attracted us so much was because it’s an inherently political conversation but it’s one of the few ones where it’s hard to… there are valid approaches. The world has to move forward, right?” says Clooney...
... “It is a political game but I think it’s one of those few opportunities that gives us the chance to let people make their own political statement in a way that’s not cheap. I don’t believe you can look at both sides of a political argument without understanding both sides. It’s easy to say this is good and this is bad. But it’s definitely taking some political stances on what we think are right and wrong. In terms of the main conflict what is interesting is it’s one of those truly balanced issues.”...

My personal opinion is that this really feels like the word "politics" is starting to replace the use of the word "themes" to describe the underlying subjects of a game, because "politics" is the buzz word that gets everyone's attention.
 
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Pimpbaa

Member
A shitty developer who panders to the far left. My hype for this game got deflated mere minutes after finding out about it.
 

Ivellios

Member
Arent we getting ahead of ourselves?

I think it is better to wait and see the final product before saying it will be a game infested with SJW elements.
 

Claus Grimhildyr

Vincit qui se vincit
Arent we getting ahead of ourselves?

I think it is better to wait and see the final product before saying it will be a game infested with SJW elements.

Agreed. The comments and people behind it are worrying, but I will wait until further into development before I pass any final judgement. Definitely okay to be weary though.
 

Dice

Member
I don't care if I agree with them or not, I'm not into politicizing games. Like I don't even care if you do the exact same stuff passively so the game just happens to be how it is, but if you sit around strategizing about how you're going to advance some cause with your game other than making a cool and fun game, I think you've lost it and I have little hope that you've put enough into making your game cool and fun.
 

brap

Banned


>multiple people list their pronouns on their twitter bio
>furious feminist
>retweeting AOC
>FUCK ABLEISM
lmao. like i couldn't tell some balding old dude is a dude. we all know what type of game this is gonna be. dont lie to yourselves people.
 
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Soltype

Member
Everybody needs to temper their expectations, remember what happened to Deus Ex Human Revolution.You are not getting a PC centric game, so get that out of your head.
 
Everybody needs to temper their expectations, remember what happened to Deus Ex Human Revolution.You are not getting a PC centric game, so get that out of your head.

You're either irrational about Human Revolution or you must be really optimistic to assume that's the worst case scenario for this sequel.
 

RedVIper

Banned
I was curious about how many people working on the sequel are the same people that worked on the original? Has the team gone trough major changes?
 

brap

Banned
Everybody needs to temper their expectations, remember what happened to Deus Ex Human Revolution.You are not getting a PC centric game, so get that out of your head.
You're either irrational about Human Revolution or you must be really optimistic to assume that's the worst case scenario for this sequel.
I feel out of the loop here. Are you guys talking about Mankind Divided? I liked Human Revolution a lot but that was back in 2011. Also, there was that racist black lady in the game I remember.
 
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Soltype

Member
Human Revolution was a decent game, but it's a far cry from Deus Ex. I'm just saying people thinking back to a PC centric title from 2004, and expecting something close are going to be dissappointed.
 
... Clooney says it’s central to Bloodlines 2 that the writers ... are actively taking a political stance in this sequel, with its themes of art versus commerce and technological advances versus tradition.
“One of the reasons why that particular conflict attracted us so much was because it’s an inherently political conversation but it’s one of the few ones where it’s hard to… there are valid approaches. The world has to move forward, right?” says Clooney...

... “It is a political game but I think it’s one of those few opportunities that gives us the chance to let people make their own political statement in a way that’s not cheap. I don’t believe you can look at both sides of a political argument without understanding both sides. It’s easy to say this is good and this is bad. But it’s definitely taking some political stances on what we think are right and wrong. In terms of the main conflict what is interesting is it’s one of those truly balanced issues.”...

That's somewhat encouraging, and I'm going to hold him to that.

Vampire: The Masquerade has always been political and, well, not exactly conservative in neither tone nor subject matter. For instance, vampires have historically been a metaphor for both unrestricted sex itself as well as for "unorthodox" forms of sexual behavior. I think some people around here are forgetting that. So yes, there can be openly gay vampires and it would be entirely suitable for this context.

This reminded me of what I think was an old SNL skit about a modern day Dracula who was asking people about their sexual history, how many partners they've been with, if their relationships were strictly monogamous, etc. I looked for it on you tube, and the closest thing I could find was this:




I don't care in the least if there are gay vampires in this game, though. Personally, I wouldn't care about trans vampires either. I'd only care if the game is poorly written and awkwardly preachy.
 

brap

Banned
Human Revolution was a decent game, but it's a far cry from Deus Ex. I'm just saying people thinking back to a PC centric title from 2004, and expecting something close are going to be dissappointed.
Oh my god... You mean PC as in Personal Computer not Politically Correct :messenger_fearful::messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

haxan7

Volunteered as Tribute
I'm fine with the game letting the player choose/create their own gender and pronouns. It is a fantasy game.
Yep. I'm not going to allow this one aspect to ruin something I otherwise want to like.

Apex Legends characters are really fucking annoying for a lot of reasons but that doesn't stop me from playing it.
 
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anthraticus

Member
Always better to expect shit and be pleasantly surprised if it's actually good.

Especially when it comes to modern gaming.
 

ExpandKong

Banned
Welp I’m out. What a simple yet spectacularly effective way to kill excitement for your newly announced game as quickly as possible.

My only concern would be a lack of sexual content, as that wouldn't be true to Vampire The Masquerade at all, but the big breasted woman seen in the trailer seems to imply that's not something to worry about.

Excuse me did you just assume xir gender
 

Bl@de

Member


>multiple people list their pronouns on their twitter bio
>furious feminist
>retweeting AOC
>FUCK ABLEISM
lmao. like i couldn't tell some balding old dude is a dude. we all know what type of game this is gonna be. dont lie to yourselves people.


1512921633391.png
 
Hardsuit Labs, formerly known as Zombie Studios before they went bankrupt.

This is their catalogue.

https://www.metacritic.com/company/zombie-studios

This might as well just be as much Bloodlines as Bioware is """""""""Bioware""""""""" in 2019.

Yup! Keep expectations very low. I ‘d say at best we’re look at. 7/10 game. Studios don’t magically make good games it comes with experience, budget and the right people making, the right decisions.
 

Acerac

Banned
A shitty developer who panders to the far left. My hype for this game got deflated mere minutes after finding out about it.
This game could have been hilarious, having a bulked out character who insisted on referring to themselves as she while destroying everyone who dared question your logic. Now I can't even get hype for that. :(

We need to make sure that people who see the first thread see this one too cuz the same thing happened to me and it's not even fair.
 
Chris Avellone is involved and so is Brian Mitsoda so I'm interested but not exactly mega hyped.

Being real though, instead of saying "Ugh, politics in this game..." Just say instead: "I don't want any of that gender neutral shit in my game." Just say it. The first game was VERY political but not in the way it seems to bother people. The gender pronoun thing is an actual non issue, anything further I can't say until the game is released.
 
Being real though, instead of saying "Ugh, politics in this game..." Just say instead: "I don't want any of that gender neutral shit in my game." Just say it. The first game was VERY political but not in the way it seems to bother people. The gender pronoun thing is an actual non issue, anything further I can't say until the game is released.
I don’t considerate a big deal, but I am worried about some of the other things the developers have said. But think of gender pronouns as the canary in the sanity coal mine.
 
I feel out of the loop here. Are you guys talking about Mankind Divided? I liked Human Revolution a lot but that was back in 2011. Also, there was that racist black lady in the game I remember.
Why exactly is it racist to depict a black women as what the baseline for the typical black woman is? It's not even a stereotype, that would mean this is some wild divergence.

This is the problem with PC culture, you can't actually depict people or things as they overwhelmingly are without being called a racist or bigot. A simple observation of reality as it stands is racism... Holy shit what happened to the world in the last decade...
 

egocrata

Member
Considering that the Vampire universe is an extensive metaphor for racism and marginalization, what the fuck where you guys expecting? The pen and paper game (and the first bloodlines) are amazing because of that.

Of course they are political. That is what the friggin game world is about.
 

Fuz

Member


Not a fan of this. I liked switching between first and third person perspectives in VTM:B.

I'm happy as fuck that it won't have a shitty TP offcentered camera only. I mean, having options would be the best possible thing, but when does it actually happen?
 
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