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Bloodlines 2: Curb your enthusiasm

TheSHEEEP

Member
I don't care in the least if there are gay vampires in this game, though. Personally, I wouldn't care about trans vampires either. I'd only care if the game is poorly written and awkwardly preachy.
Exactly. That's just something we'll have to wait and see about.

Of course, for some people the fact that there will likely be lgbtq characters in the game, that consent plays a role for bloodsucking (as it does in PnP, it honestly just makes sense) and the lead writer is a woman is enough to proclaim the end of the world by SJWism ;)
 
Arent we getting ahead of ourselves?

I think it is better to wait and see the final product before saying it will be a game infested with SJW elements.

Yeah it's better to just wait and see final product. There's some warning signs so pre-order is out of question but it might end being good.
 

Kadayi

Banned
Yeah it's better to just wait and see final product. There's some warning signs so pre-order is out of question but it might end being good.

Yeah. I'm in the wait and see camp as well. Ultimately Paradox is funding this, so I suspect they've had some input in terms of direction and expectation.
 

plushyp

Member
I'm happy as fuck that it won't have a shitty TP offcentered camera only. I mean, having options would be the best possible thing, but when does it actually happen?
People who suffer from motion sickness. My friend played through VTMB like that because of it while I played the Ocean House Hotel mission that way.
 
What's important - Vampire the Masquerades Bloodline sequel will be hitting store shelves in 2020! The game is made and plays well. It has a long and amazing story. The exploration is fantastic. The atmosphere and setting are great. Mission variety is nice and robust. Playing as a Malkavian will be a blast.

What's not important - All the political shit and supposed propaganda that people are going to be spewing out of their mouth holes about whatever the fuck they can latch onto and bitch and moan about.
 

TheSHEEEP

Member
What's important - Vampire the Masquerades Bloodline sequel will be hitting store shelves in 2020! The game is made and plays well. It has a long and amazing story. The exploration is fantastic. The atmosphere and setting are great. Mission variety is nice and robust. Playing as a Malkavian will be a blast.
Restrain yourself. Don't you know what disappointed hype can do to your blood pressure?
 
Vampire: The Masquerade - Bloodlines is one of my favorite games ever made, but that game is from a completely different era - might as well be from a parallel universe - , and developed by a completely different set of talented individuals (Troika Games), people that worked at Black Isle (Planescape/Fallout). Hardsuit Labs, the team that Paradox Interactive (the publisher) have assigned to develop this game is a perplexing choice, to say the least, because they're an independent company apparently created by former employees of Zombie Studios which have a full catalog of below - average video games. Lastly, the fact that they're announcing this implies that it's a priority for them, meaning that the writing will be infused with their politics propaganda.

In conclusion, to say that i'm highly doubtful that this sequel will come close to the original is an understatement of unfathomable proportions.
 
What supposedly "apolitical" gaffers say: Oh great, another politically charged videogame, I don't want my games to make political statements.

What they actually mean: I only want games that are in line with the way I view the world.
 

brap

Banned
What supposedly "apolitical" gaffers say: Oh great, another politically charged videogame, I don't want my games to make political statements.

What they actually mean: I only want games that are in line with the way I view the world.
Contrary to popular belief not everybody wants politics shoved into every single fucking thing. And you'd be one of the first people to whine if all video games weren't liberal like they are now.
 
What supposedly "apolitical" gaffers say: Oh great, another politically charged videogame, I don't want my games to make political statements.

What they actually mean: I only want games that are in line with the way I view the world.
Nope. Try again. Maybe don't try to speak for people when you don't have a god damned clue what they stand for.
 
Nope. Try again. Maybe don't try to speak for people when you don't have a god damned clue what they stand for.

Ok, fair enough, let's discuss. Kindly explain to me what You stand for and how it affects your expectations of this game.

Contrary to popular belief not everybody wants politics shoved into every single fucking thing. And you'd be one of the first people to whine if all video games weren't liberal like they are now.
I would say that the "popular belief" in GAF is actually that "politics" should not be a part of video games... but as I've said many times before, "politics" are a part of every single form of art and entertainment that we consume, but we only notice it when they don't fit our own views. That second part about me whining I did not understand, so maybe You want to elaborate further.
 
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Soltype

Member
What supposedly "apolitical" gaffers say: Oh great, another politically charged videogame, I don't want my games to make political statements.

What they actually mean: I only want games that are in line with the way I view the world.
The problem is now more than ever people use world views to shape themselves. No one is saying that older games didn't have political views or statements, but it seems like people have nothing to offer in the way of opinions besides what they echo.Whether or not people can bring unique perspectives is unknown, what most people are bringing to the table is more of the same.This is also not unique to liberals.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
There's a difference between politics implicit in themes of a narrative and politicization of everything. I can agree that everything shouldn't be politicized, however the people complaining most loudly about it seem to politicize everything themselves so figure that out. Like compare the threads here about it to discussion on Reddit which is mostly talking about what's in the lore, the pen and paper rpg, and what the game will be like not going on and on about how it doesn't pass an anti-sjw litmus test, fit reactionary attitudes about gender, etc etc



 
Ok, fair enough, let's discuss. Kindly explain to me what You stand for and how it affects your expectations of this game.
Okay, that's not an unreasonable request. Basically, I want a game with a moral grey area. Something where right and wrong are not obvious, easy, or neat. I want to do wrong things for the right reasons and I want the right things to turn out wrong. I want writing that makes characters complicated - I want to disagree with a character that I agree with. I want a character that makes my blood boil make a good point that stops me in my tracks. I want the game to reflect a complex and multi-layered world, where darkness can sometimes be light, and vice versa. Mostly, I want something that challenges me, not something that panders or preaches. I want something to respect and something to criticize. I want to talk about the game for the next decade, disagreeing with it while simultaneously praising it. I want a game of conflict - conflicting emotions, conflicting ideas, conflicting interests.

That's what I got with the first game, and part of the reason I liked it as much as I did, and part of the reason why I still remember and respect it some fifteen years later. But what I'm getting from the interviews are developers who see the world in black and white. I see developers criticizing the very game they are striving to follow in the footsteps of (the way we talk about mental illness has changed, making it less masculine fantasy to appeal to more people) - these guys should be reverential to the original, but they are dismissive. They think they are better than the original game, and I don't see any reason why they should. And the way these developers talk makes me think that any detailed commentary or criticism of the game will be called misogynistc and hateful.

I'm fine with politics in a game, and always have been, but I don't like dumb politics by dumb people who have never once had an original thought in their head. I don't want to play a game with all the subtlety of the Ten Commandments. And I really don't like it when people think their politics are more important than their responsibilities in making a sequel. If you are making a sequel to Bloodlines, you should fucking appreciate Bloodlines. Instead, this seems like a Trojan horse - they are using the Bloodlines name as a way to sneak their ideological dogma into another product, predestined to get lots of praise and attention for what it is following rather than what it is. If this game was called ANYTHING else, nobody would give a shit. They go, "Oh, a Vampire game? That's cool. I don't know most of these names and I really don't like that lady, and gender pronouns? Uh. Ok." But it is called Bloodlines 2 and we're excited because Bloodlines was special and we are hoping beyond hope that they don't fuck this up.
 

Shai-Tan

Banned
And yet it's impossible to have a conversation about because we don't discuss any specifics it's all innuendo like "we can't accept the pronoun heresy otherwise we might end up in the narrative equivalent of THE GAMER GULAG" How has this ideological extremism manifested in games? ... "They said something on the internet I don't like". So you're bothered because two women kissed? "No, no, they have an AGENDA. They showed two women kiss like it was normal... to show in a promo" OK but the writing of the previous game was good regardless of you being uncomfortable enough with an LGBTQ kiss in a promo to label it as evidence of an agenda. "Someone connected to the game said something I didn't like on the internet"

Where's the analysis that justifies the heuristic? I've followed forums that complain about this sort of thing since fall 2016 and there's a constant stream of innuendo about content that's either inflated or doesn't find its way into the game in the way it was imagined. Then when the game comes out it's all about the next unreleased game. Maybe if we went back it would reveal that the case is often weak? Like, I saw someone whining about Mechwarrior today and it's weak sauce like "they gave a pronoun option and I don't like the character portraits" (because bad portraits are apparently a symptom of being infected with "sjw" ideology)
 
Contrary to popular belief not everybody wants politics shoved into every single fucking thing. And you'd be one of the first people to whine if all video games weren't liberal like they are now.

Okay, that's not an unreasonable request. Basically, I want a game with a moral grey area. Something where right and wrong are not obvious, easy, or neat. I want to do wrong things for the right reasons and I want the right things to turn out wrong. I want writing that makes characters complicated - I want to disagree with a character that I agree with. I want a character that makes my blood boil make a good point that stops me in my tracks. I want the game to reflect a complex and multi-layered world, where darkness can sometimes be light, and vice versa. Mostly, I want something that challenges me, not something that panders or preaches. I want something to respect and something to criticize. I want to talk about the game for the next decade, disagreeing with it while simultaneously praising it. I want a game of conflict - conflicting emotions, conflicting ideas, conflicting interests.

That's what I got with the first game, and part of the reason I liked it as much as I did, and part of the reason why I still remember and respect it some fifteen years later. But what I'm getting from the interviews are developers who see the world in black and white. I see developers criticizing the very game they are striving to follow in the footsteps of (the way we talk about mental illness has changed, making it less masculine fantasy to appeal to more people) - these guys should be reverential to the original, but they are dismissive. They think they are better than the original game, and I don't see any reason why they should. And the way these developers talk makes me think that any detailed commentary or criticism of the game will be called misogynistc and hateful.

I'm fine with politics in a game, and always have been, but I don't like dumb politics by dumb people who have never once had an original thought in their head. I don't want to play a game with all the subtlety of the Ten Commandments. And I really don't like it when people think their politics are more important than their responsibilities in making a sequel. If you are making a sequel to Bloodlines, you should fucking appreciate Bloodlines. Instead, this seems like a Trojan horse - they are using the Bloodlines name as a way to sneak their ideological dogma into another product, predestined to get lots of praise and attention for what it is following rather than what it is. If this game was called ANYTHING else, nobody would give a shit. They go, "Oh, a Vampire game? That's cool. I don't know most of these names and I really don't like that lady, and gender pronouns? Uh. Ok." But it is called Bloodlines 2 and we're excited because Bloodlines was special and we are hoping beyond hope that they don't fuck this up.

I totally get You, in fact, many of the things You said really resonated with me and with the things I look for when I watch a film, read a book, play a video game (with some exceptions). The thing is, by what you're saying, You do want politics in games, You just want them to be delivered in an effective way, which is the same thing I want. But this is very different from saying "I don't want politics in my games". As for the way this new team will deliver this, it's my perception that a lot of people are approaching it with a lot of prejudices when we just got a reveal, prejudices based on who is making the game, because to be honest I can't find anything in the article that points to this being a disservice to the first entry. In any case, we'll have to wait and see how it turns out, I just don't think this "It's gonna be crap because it's plagued with politics and themes that might interfere with my views" attitude is very constructive.
 
I totally get You, in fact, many of the things You said really resonated with me and with the things I look for when I watch a film, read a book, play a video game (with some exceptions). The thing is, by what you're saying, You do want politics in games, You just want them to be delivered in an effective way, which is the same thing I want. But this is very different from saying "I don't want politics in my games".
See, the place where you are getting confused is that the word "politics" is open ended and a bunch of different people are using a bunch of different definitions, and they end up talking past each other because "politics" does not accurately convey the ideas of either side. So let me try to use different terminology so that we don't get hung up on this.

I do not mind writing that has an opinion, that makes a statement, that tackles complicated ideas, or which challenges me of my beliefs. These are things I do not have a problem with.

I do have a problem with dogmatic thinking, preaching to the choir, insulting me as a person, presenting ideas dishonestly, destroying/rewriting/dismissing the past (both good and bad), and acting like you are doing me a favor by making me sniff your farts and thank you for it. These are things I have a problem.

They are not mutually exclusive, which is why this discussion just runs in circles. I want the former without the latter. I guess one way to put it would be, I don't mind politics, but I really don't care for Politics.

Most importantly, I have a problem with stupidity. If you do something smart and with consideration and care, then I don't need to agree with you to see value in your work. If you just do something poorly and without care, then I don't give a shit whether we agree or disagree, fuck you.
 
And yet it's impossible to have a conversation about because we don't discuss any specifics it's all innuendo like "we can't accept the pronoun heresy otherwise we might end up in the narrative equivalent of THE GAMER GULAG" How has this ideological extremism manifested in games? ... "They said something on the internet I don't like". So you're bothered because two women kissed? "No, no, they have an AGENDA. They showed two women kiss like it was normal... to show in a promo" OK but the writing of the previous game was good regardless of you being uncomfortable enough with an LGBTQ kiss in a promo to label it as evidence of an agenda. "Someone connected to the game said something I didn't like on the internet"
Literally nobody has a problem with girls kissing. I love it. I could watch it all day. It's like regular people kissing, but I'm attracted to both of them. That's a win-win for me. Based on PornHub statistics, I don't think I'm in a minority - and we're talking about a whole lot more than kissing. Sometimes, there's butt stuff.

Has it ever occurred to you that people might actually not have a problem with girls kissing and instead actually, really, truly, honestly have a problem with the agenda behind how it is presented? Is that concept too challenging for you, are you so desperate to label everyone else as homophobic that you are reduced to being dishonest in your portrayal of their argument? Yikes. Not a good look.
 

GhostOfTsu

Member
Politics in videogames are fine, they have been there in pretty much all of them since the beginning. Like in the narrative, themes, red vs blue etc nobody has a problem with that.

What people are tired of is these new GENDER/RACE politics that started a couple of years ago on the internet. I remember when South Park announced there would be a "trans" option in their game. People here were cheering at first but then the game came out and they criticized everything about it and told others to not support the game and boycott it lol

Good luck to the Bloodlines 2 developers because the SJWs will NEVER be satisfied. They will always find something "problematic" and trash your game. Do not bow down to them.

Like DICE before them, Bloodlines 2 is doomed if the devs double down. The backlash already started.
 
Literally nobody has a problem with girls kissing. I love it. I could watch it all day. It's like regular people kissing, but I'm attracted to both of them. That's a win-win for me. Based on PornHub statistics, I don't think I'm in a minority - and we're talking about a whole lot more than kissing. Sometimes, there's butt stuff.

Has it ever occurred to you that people might actually not have a problem with girls kissing and instead actually, really, truly, honestly have a problem with the agenda behind how it is presented? Is that concept too challenging for you, are you so desperate to label everyone else as homophobic that you are reduced to being dishonest in your portrayal of their argument? Yikes. Not a good look.

I'm sorry my dude, but the simple fact that you put it as "regular people" does indicate certain homophobic tendencies... So you're kind of proving their point.
 

EDMIX

Member
There is an entire “video game” forum that would disagree with you.
? That forum come up with some form of mind control or something?

Any artist is free to create what they want, no different then someone is free to disagree with it. That being said....no, you can't control what their vision is or what they seek to create based on what they want....unless you legit do have some mind control device......if so.....carry on (puts tin foil on head)
 

EDMIX

Member
There's a difference between politics implicit in themes of a narrative and politicization of everything. I can agree that everything shouldn't be politicized, however the people complaining most loudly about it seem to politicize everything themselves so figure that out. Like compare the threads here about it to discussion on Reddit which is mostly talking about what's in the lore, the pen and paper rpg, and what the game will be like not going on and on about how it doesn't pass an anti-sjw litmus test, fit reactionary attitudes about gender, etc etc





Pretty much, its almost as if they are mad that folks have free will and are able to create what they want. Everything is a agenda, grand scheme, conspiracy etc. Ignoring that ANY SIDE can have such ideas and place them in games, unless they can read minds, they'd NEVER KNOW what games where developed by those who have different views then them, by that logic they should quit gaming if they are looking for a game where 100% of the staff believes in the same thing or something lol

Its just silly. I question if some of theses folks even actually play games for fun. I don't mind politics being in games as I'm an adult, it matters not to me if the person that made it shares a different view then me, if its fun....I'm on board. Thats it. I feel sorry for them as they'll never get to enjoy Mad Men, House Of Cards, West Wing, JAG, etc lol
 
I'm sorry my dude, but the simple fact that you put it as "regular people" does indicate certain homophobic tendencies... So you're kind of proving their point.
You guys really need to get a new playbook. I get called a pedophile for liking anime (like, every day). I get called a misogynist for not liking the new Ghostbusters. I get called a transphobe for thinking that true equality means nobody has to take your shit. I get called a racist for thinking immigration needs some controls put on it. I'm a white supremacist for thinking Alex Jones shouldn't be unceremoniously removed from the internet. And now I've been called a homophobe for liking lesbian porn? I know what I am and I'm none of these things.

You should really stop. Nobody is buying it anymore. You've cried wolf too many times. It's really coming off as kinda pathetic.

YOUR POWERS OF SHAME DO NOT WORK ON ME.
 
You guys really need to get a new playbook. I get called a pedophile for liking anime (like, every day). I get called a misogynist for not liking the new Ghostbusters. I get called a transphobe for thinking that true equality means nobody has to take your shit. I get called a racist for thinking immigration needs some controls put on it. I'm a white supremacist for thinking Alex Jones shouldn't be unceremoniously removed from the internet. And now I've been called a homophobe for liking lesbian porn? I know what I am and I'm none of these things.

You should really stop. Nobody is buying it anymore. You've cried wolf too many times. It's really coming off as kinda pathetic.

YOUR POWERS OF SHAME DO NOT WORK ON ME.

I'm saying you show homophobic tendencies by implying same-gender sexual relations are "unnatural", not because you like lesbian porn. If You can argue how that is not homophobic, please do. It's ironic how you accuse me of "selling" an act when you're the one trying to play the heroic victim.
 

EDMIX

Member
Literally nobody has a problem with girls kissing. I love it. I could watch it all day. It's like regular people kissing, but I'm attracted to both of them. That's a win-win for me. Based on PornHub statistics, I don't think I'm in a minority - and we're talking about a whole lot more than kissing. Sometimes, there's butt stuff.

Has it ever occurred to you that people might actually not have a problem with girls kissing and instead actually, really, truly, honestly have a problem with the agenda behind how it is presented? Is that concept too challenging for you, are you so desperate to label everyone else as homophobic that you are reduced to being dishonest in your portrayal of their argument? Yikes. Not a good look.

"the agenda behind how it is presented? "

Huh? Ummmm so 2 girls have never kissed and if they do in a game, its suddenly a "agenda"? Come on man, its just reaching and it sounds like you are trying to find some smoking bullet to show some dark secret to take over the world or something.

People kiss, yes girls kiss each other, so if it happens in real life and the game is REFERENCING REAL LIFE, whats the issue? You are basically claiming the existence of it must be a "agenda", sorry but I see folks hug and kiss all the time and sometimes they are part of the same sex.......that isn't some agenda my friend. Thats call real life.

Maybe the team is showing folks what the actual real world looks like.

It would be like a "SJW" questioning a scene where a man and woman kissed as being a "agenda" as if kissing folks is brand new and never seen before in society So their whole "agenda" thing is just as dumb as yours bud, its not any different and makes just as little sense. Soooo not every white guy in a game kissing a girl is a "right wing agenda" JUST like not every girl kissing another girl is a "left wing agenda"

....you are now questioning something that occurs in real life. Your argument basically is what SJW argue so, I guess you get them now
 
I'm saying you show homophobic tendencies by implying same-gender sexual relations are "unnatural", not because you like lesbian porn. If You can argue how that is not homophobic, please do. It's ironic how you accuse me of "selling" an act when you're the one trying to play the heroic victim.
Shit dude, apparently you know what is going on inside my head better than I do. That's amazing! What number am I thinking of? It was 4. Did you think it was 4 too? Fuck my sideways with a chainsaw. I'm blown away. Too stunned to respond. Let me take a moment compose myself and think of the perfect response. Okay, here it is..

FUC... oh, why bother? Since you can obviously read my mind and my deepest, darkest desires, you already know what I'm going to say. Let's just communicate telepathically from now on.
 
Shit dude, apparently you know what is going on inside my head better than I do. That's amazing! What number am I thinking of? It was 4. Did you think it was 4 too? Fuck my sideways with a chainsaw. I'm blown away. Too stunned to respond. Let me take a moment compose myself and think of the perfect response. Okay, here it is..

FUC... oh, why bother? Since you can obviously read my mind and my deepest, darkest desires, you already know what I'm going to say. Let's just communicate telepathically from now on.

I'm merely quoting you:

Literally nobody has a problem with girls kissing. I love it. I could watch it all day. It's like regular people kissing...

It's not advanced linguistics, the implication is quite clear, wouldn't You say?
 
I knew who was developing this as soon as I saw it. Blacklight isn't a bad series but I'm not sure if they're up to the task of such a beloved franchise, let's hope.

If there are any progressive undertones, I'm out. But since the main writer of the first game is writing this one, then what's the issue I'm missing? Then again I didn't play the first one but was definitely intrigued.
 
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"the agenda behind how it is presented? "

Huh? Ummmm so 2 girls have never kissed and if they do in a game, its suddenly a "agenda"? Come on man, its just reaching and it sounds like you are trying to find some smoking bullet to show some dark secret to take over the world or something.
It is a DOGMA. A set of beliefs and rules which are considered sacred, and which any deviation from is considered a sin. It is not based on religion, but it acts like one, and it's goal is to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it.

Let's take a simple example. Ghostbusters 2016. They spend months talking about how important it is for the film to be headed by funny women. The trailer sucked. People said it sucked. The marketing department for a multimillion dollar movie decided to call everyone who thought it sucked a woman hater and an incel. The movie comes out. It does suck. A hundred different articles by various "journalists" all come out with the same propaganda talking about how it is sexist to hate this stunning and brave movie. People are banned from forums and subreddits, forced to delete tweets, and have Facebook posts mysteriously disappear. Months and months later, everybody is like, oh yeah, it sucked.

I don't have a problem with the fact that Ghostbusters 2016 sucks. I have a problem with EVERYTHING ELSE. My life is not affected by a shitty movie. My life is affected by people who try to ostracize me from my communities and circles of friends because I pointed out that it sucked. That's what pisses me off. When people start talking about a project in terms of toxic masculinity and gender pronouns, what I hear is, "this thing is above criticism. We've made this thing too ideologically valuable, and criticizing our work is akin to criticizing the social ills we created this work to fight, and we will fuck you up".

And they are 100% absolutely right. Their works are above criticism. Because they know that they are preaching to a choir that owns message boards, social media websites, and journalism outfits. The people who buy into this dogma have the power to drown out voices, portray legitimate criticisms incorrectly, and remove those who disagree from the public eye. And there's enough people who've bought into this dogma that they are cheering on this incredibly dangerous and immoral behavior!

Yeah, there's a fucking agenda. And it's hard to take your comment seriously about not seeing an agenda when you are wearing the uniform.

People kiss, yes girls kiss each other, so if it happens in real life and the game is REFERENCING REAL LIFE, whats the issue? You are basically claiming the existence of it must be a "agenda", sorry but I see folks hug and kiss all the time and sometimes they are part of the same sex.......that isn't some agenda my friend. Thats call real life.
It was a video game conference. It was there to show off video games. It was not an appropriate or welcomed place to make a political statement. You saw two girls kissing. I saw myself getting banned from a forum two years later for homophobia after criticizing the game.

Maybe the team is showing folks what the actual real world looks like.
We all live in the fucking real world. Nobody thinks lesbians don't exist.

....you are now questioning something that occurs in real life. Your argument basically is what SJW argue so, I guess you get them now
Jesus Herbert Christ. It's always the same playbook. Call people a homophobe, misogynist, Islamaphobes, pedophile, racist, incels, white supremacists, anti-Semites, whatever. If you are lucky, they will be too stupid to realize that you are full of shit. (The fact that the list is as long as it is proves that the labels are meaningless, since you just move on to a new one once the last one starts to falter).

If that doesn't work, act like you are in on a secret that nobody else is smart enough to understand. I believe this is a form of "negging", where you undermine the person's confidence and increase their need for your approval. You'd understand this if you knew what the real world looked like.

Still not working? Conflate multiple meanings of words to build confusion (not wanting politics in games? All games have politics). Are they pointing out your hypocrisy? Whataboutism.

Failing all that, accuse them of being just as bad by using the criticisms and labels they use against you on them. I call this the "No, you are" defense. It doesn't work when you are 7 and it doesn't work now.

I have to ask... does this work on you? I mean, this stuff must or you wouldn't think it worked on others. Or do you just have such a low opinion of everyone else that you think they are too stupid to not fall for it?
 
I'm merely quoting you:
It's not advanced linguistics, the implication is quite clear, wouldn't You say?
So, it's not what I actually expressed, but what is implied by how I expressed it? You think that's fair? That makes me a homophobe? I mean, I would say no, and obviously, if I say no, the answer is no. But I guess you think I'm not gonna say no - that I would never say no - because of the implication.
 
So, it's not what I actually expressed, but what is implied by how I expressed it? You think that's fair? That makes me a homophobe? I mean, I would say no, and obviously, if I say no, the answer is no. But I guess you think I'm not gonna say no - that I would never say no - because of the implication.

Look, language is really important, so let's clear two things up:

1. I have not called You a Homophobe, I am aware I don't know You so I wouldn't be comfortable making that statement. I've pointed there are certain homophobic tendencies in your speech, those can be two different things, I just won't venture into saying if that's the case in this instance.

2. You stated heterosexuals are "regular people" opposed to gay people, that's for all intent and purposes saying homosexual people are not "regular people", which is a homophobic attitude. That's clear, I'm not pulling some hermeneutic sorcery on your words.

If it was an error in the way of expressing yourself, well, make the clarification. If it wasn't an error and you wrote exactly what you meant, I don't see how you can argue that you don't show those homophobic tendencies in your speech.
 

KonradLaw

Member
Ehh...Vampire has always been very political and progressive IP. let's not rewritte history here. It's the core part of the brand's DNA. Making Vampire game without it would be like makin Werewolf game without focusing on ecology.
 
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Acerac

Banned
Look, language is really important, so let's clear two things up:

1. I have not called You a Homophobe, I am aware I don't know You so I wouldn't be comfortable making that statement. I've pointed there are certain homophobic tendencies in your speech, those can be two different things, I just won't venture into saying if that's the case in this instance.

2. You stated heterosexuals are "regular people" opposed to gay people, that's for all intent and purposes saying homosexual people are not "regular people", which is a homophobic attitude. That's clear, I'm not pulling some hermeneutic sorcery on your words.

If it was an error in the way of expressing yourself, well, make the clarification. If it wasn't an error and you wrote exactly what you meant, I don't see how you can argue that you don't show those homophobic tendencies in your speech.
As a gay guy I find your response to these posts embarassing. He is not afraid of gays.
 

DW74

Member
I’m not going to let anything deter me from the unbridled joy of playing another V:TM experience, period.

You know that Troika went out of business right after the first game came out and this new game is from a shit developer, right? It's extremely likely that this will suck. Hard. The fact that they are singing their virtues more than a year out is not a good sign.
 
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FireFly

Member
2. You stated heterosexuals are "regular people" opposed to gay people.
He said they were "like" regular people, which would be indicating inclusion, not opposition. I interpreted his post to mean that gay people are just regular people too, and he doesn't have a problem with people kissing.

I feel like it is a bad idea to call someone out on something they said without at least confirming their interpretation first.
 
1. I have not called You a Homophobe, I am aware I don't know You so I wouldn't be comfortable making that statement. I've pointed there are certain homophobic tendencies in your speech, those can be two different things, I just won't venture into saying if that's the case in this instance.
Right, because of the implications... I wish you could hear how creepy your threats are coming across. “That’s a real nice reputation you got there. Be a real shame if someone were to imply you were a homophobe...”

I don’t care if you call me a homophobe, implications or otherwise. I’ve been called worse (I like anime, remember).

2. You stated heterosexuals are "regular people" opposed to gay people, that's for all intent and purposes saying homosexual people are not "regular people", which is a homophobic attitude. That's clear, I'm not pulling some hermeneutic sorcery on your words.
I shouldn’t have to say this, and it irritates me to no end that I have to, but it was a joke. Read that paragraph again. I wasn’t making fun of gay people. I was making fun of Shai-Tan for thinking that the problem was with girls kissing. There’s four or five jokes there, all in bad taste, that are intentionally facetious and designed to make him explicitly feel uncomfortable with what I was saying. You read “sometimes there’s butt stuff” and thought I was sharing my deepest, darkest opinions on homosexuality?

The fact that he can’t see past the two girls kissing, and thinks no one else can either, shows that he is the one obsessing about it. His dogma states that being gay is a parade of oppression and to show two girls kissing is stunning and brave. Being gay has its ups and downs, I’m sure, but public displays of affection haven’t been a problem in decades.

I know a surprising number of lesbians. I’ve worked for a lesbian, I’ve been friends with a lesbian, I’ve gone to parties with lesbians and their significant others. You be surprised how many lesbians there are in tech jobs. Hell, there’s a kid in my daughter’s class that has four moms. I was there when my boss decided to renew her vows with her wife (when gay marriage wasn’t even recognized by the government). It’s never been a noteworthy thing. These have always been friends, acquaintances, bosses, and coworkers first. Their sexuality has never been an obstacle to my friendship, nor even come up in conversation. I don’t introduce them with “This is my gay friend Sally, She’s a lesbian. She kisses girls.” Hell, even describing them just as lesbians now feels like a betrayal of the complex people I know them to be.

Nobody cares about girls kissing in a video game except Shai-Tan, and his (and others’) repeated attempts to paint our disagreement with the way they politicized that scene as being uncomfortable with homosexuality is one of the most grotesque and anger inducing things on the internet. So, I had a little fun at his expense. It was a joke. Stop being a dick about.

If it was an error in the way of expressing yourself, well, make the clarification. If it wasn't an error and you wrote exactly what you meant, I don't see how you can argue that you don't show those homophobic tendencies in your speech.
You don’t know me and you read into my words the least charitable meanings and intent. You think that your ignorant assumptions about a stranger on the internet based on two words is enough to justify calling this stranger, in public, a homophobe (sorry, “have homophobic tendencies”), knowing what a serious and damaging accusation this is. I would be thrilled if, at some point, you realize just how cruel and unfair you are being and come to the shocking conclusion that you are the bad guy here.
 
Right, because of the implications... I wish you could hear how creepy your threats are coming across. “That’s a real nice reputation you got there. Be a real shame if someone were to imply you were a homophobe...”

I don’t care if you call me a homophobe, implications or otherwise. I’ve been called worse (I like anime, remember).

I shouldn’t have to say this, and it irritates me to no end that I have to, but it was a joke. Read that paragraph again. I wasn’t making fun of gay people. I was making fun of Shai-Tan for thinking that the problem was with girls kissing. There’s four or five jokes there, all in bad taste, that are intentionally facetious and designed to make him explicitly feel uncomfortable with what I was saying. You read “sometimes there’s butt stuff” and thought I was sharing my deepest, darkest opinions on homosexuality?

The fact that he can’t see past the two girls kissing, and thinks no one else can either, shows that he is the one obsessing about it. His dogma states that being gay is a parade of oppression and to show two girls kissing is stunning and brave. Being gay has its ups and downs, I’m sure, but public displays of affection haven’t been a problem in decades.

I know a surprising number of lesbians. I’ve worked for a lesbian, I’ve been friends with a lesbian, I’ve gone to parties with lesbians and their significant others. You be surprised how many lesbians there are in tech jobs. Hell, there’s a kid in my daughter’s class that has four moms. I was there when my boss decided to renew her vows with her wife (when gay marriage wasn’t even recognized by the government). It’s never been a noteworthy thing. These have always been friends, acquaintances, bosses, and coworkers first. Their sexuality has never been an obstacle to my friendship, nor even come up in conversation. I don’t introduce them with “This is my gay friend Sally, She’s a lesbian. She kisses girls.” Hell, even describing them just as lesbians now feels like a betrayal of the complex people I know them to be.

Nobody cares about girls kissing in a video game except Shai-Tan, and his (and others’) repeated attempts to paint our disagreement with the way they politicized that scene as being uncomfortable with homosexuality is one of the most grotesque and anger inducing things on the internet. So, I had a little fun at his expense. It was a joke. Stop being a dick about.

You don’t know me and you read into my words the least charitable meanings and intent. You think that your ignorant assumptions about a stranger on the internet based on two words is enough to justify calling this stranger, in public, a homophobe (sorry, “have homophobic tendencies”), knowing what a serious and damaging accusation this is. I would be thrilled if, at some point, you realize just how cruel and unfair you are being and come to the shocking conclusion that you are the bad guy here.

Oh, the "hey, I know gay people" comeback. Look, you clearly have your narrative constructed so let's just leave it at that. Moving on.
 

EDMIX

Member
It is a DOGMA. A set of beliefs and rules which are considered sacred, and which any deviation from is considered a sin. It is not based on religion, but it acts like one, and it's goal is to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it.

Let's take a simple example. Ghostbusters 2016. They spend months talking about how important it is for the film to be headed by funny women. The trailer sucked. People said it sucked. The marketing department for a multimillion dollar movie decided to call everyone who thought it sucked a woman hater and an incel. The movie comes out. It does suck. A hundred different articles by various "journalists" all come out with the same propaganda talking about how it is sexist to hate this stunning and brave movie. People are banned from forums and subreddits, forced to delete tweets, and have Facebook posts mysteriously disappear. Months and months later, everybody is like, oh yeah, it sucked.

I don't have a problem with the fact that Ghostbusters 2016 sucks. I have a problem with EVERYTHING ELSE. My life is not affected by a shitty movie. My life is affected by people who try to ostracize me from my communities and circles of friends because I pointed out that it sucked. That's what pisses me off. When people start talking about a project in terms of toxic masculinity and gender pronouns, what I hear is, "this thing is above criticism. We've made this thing too ideologically valuable, and criticizing our work is akin to criticizing the social ills we created this work to fight, and we will fuck you up".

And they are 100% absolutely right. Their works are above criticism. Because they know that they are preaching to a choir that owns message boards, social media websites, and journalism outfits. The people who buy into this dogma have the power to drown out voices, portray legitimate criticisms incorrectly, and remove those who disagree from the public eye. And there's enough people who've bought into this dogma that they are cheering on this incredibly dangerous and immoral behavior!

Yeah, there's a fucking agenda. And it's hard to take your comment seriously about not seeing an agenda when you are wearing the uniform.


It was a video game conference. It was there to show off video games. It was not an appropriate or welcomed place to make a political statement. You saw two girls kissing. I saw myself getting banned from a forum two years later for homophobia after criticizing the game.


We all live in the fucking real world. Nobody thinks lesbians don't exist.


Jesus Herbert Christ. It's always the same playbook. Call people a homophobe, misogynist, Islamaphobes, pedophile, racist, incels, white supremacists, anti-Semites, whatever. If you are lucky, they will be too stupid to realize that you are full of shit. (The fact that the list is as long as it is proves that the labels are meaningless, since you just move on to a new one once the last one starts to falter).

If that doesn't work, act like you are in on a secret that nobody else is smart enough to understand. I believe this is a form of "negging", where you undermine the person's confidence and increase their need for your approval. You'd understand this if you knew what the real world looked like.

Still not working? Conflate multiple meanings of words to build confusion (not wanting politics in games? All games have politics). Are they pointing out your hypocrisy? Whataboutism.

Failing all that, accuse them of being just as bad by using the criticisms and labels they use against you on them. I call this the "No, you are" defense. It doesn't work when you are 7 and it doesn't work now.

I have to ask... does this work on you? I mean, this stuff must or you wouldn't think it worked on others. Or do you just have such a low opinion of everyone else that you think they are too stupid to not fall for it?

" it's goal is to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it. " ?? Soooooo anything in a game that you don't join was made to destroy you for rejecting it? That would be like saying GTA and all of its violence and killing that its goal is " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it. " smh

Sounds very, very exaggerative and sensational just for the sake of it. You telling me you serously can't enjoy any work of art unless you assume any of the characters are not making you um "join the sect"?

So Forza is also " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it." in terms of cars, an agenda to kill off horses no less.

Yakuza is also " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it." to make you join the Japanese Yakuza, an agenda against America no less

Mario is also " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it." likely an agenda to kill off turtles and jump on people smh.

Or Uncharted, a clear right wing agenda " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it." likely to force white males with shirts half tucked in and shove it in our faces bro!

/s


So not everything is some agenda and or conspiracy. Gay people exist and kiss in real life.... it being in a game doesn't mean anything other then it being in a game that is reference to something real that happens in real life.
 
" it's goal is to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it. " ?? Soooooo anything in a game that you don't join was made to destroy you for rejecting it? That would be like saying GTA and all of its violence and killing that its goal is " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it. " smh
See, this would be the part of the playbook where you confuse things that should be obvious. I didn't say ANY THING I disagree with in a game, I said THIS THING I disagree with in a game. You've broadened the scope considerably from what I've said, apparently out of basic reading comprehension failure, and taken it to such a ridiculous extreme that I wonder if even you believe your argument makes sense.

You'd best be believing in reducto ad absurdum, poppet. You're in one.

Sounds very, very exaggerative and sensational just for the sake of it. You telling me you serously can't enjoy any work of art unless you assume any of the characters are not making you um "join the sect"?
I'm going to answer that question in a second, but before I do, have you accepted our lord and savior Jesus Christ into your heart? We are born into sin and it is only through His love that we find salvation.

* Quest Started: Find Jesus *

So Forza is also " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it." in terms of cars, an agenda to kill off horses no less.

Yakuza is also " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it." to make you join the Japanese Yakuza, an agenda against America no less

Mario is also " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it." likely an agenda to kill off turtles and jump on people smh.

Or Uncharted, a clear right wing agenda " to get you to join the sect, or to destroy you for rejecting it." likely to force white males with shirts half tucked in and shove it in our faces bro!

/s
Are you fucking with me right now? Are there cameras hidden somewhere watching my reaction? Is this a show where people say the most random, dumb shit things humanly possible and everybody laughs while the normal people sit there struck dumb by the absurdity of the situation? Because if it is, you might as well give up. I'll never sign the release form.

So not everything is some agenda and or conspiracy. Gay people exist and kiss in real life.... it being in a game doesn't mean anything other then it being in a game that is reference to something real that happens in real life.
Yeah, but this is actually an agenda. They've literally admitted it.


 

EDMIX

Member
See, this would be the part of the playbook where you confuse things that should be obvious. I didn't say ANY THING I disagree with in a game, I said THIS THING I disagree with in a game. You've broadened the scope considerably from what I've said, apparently out of basic reading comprehension failure, and taken it to such a ridiculous extreme that I wonder if even you believe your argument makes sense.

You'd best be believing in reducto ad absurdum, poppet. You're in one.

I'm going to answer that question in a second, but before I do, have you accepted our lord and savior Jesus Christ into your heart? We are born into sin and it is only through His love that we find salvation.

* Quest Started: Find Jesus *

Are you fucking with me right now? Are there cameras hidden somewhere watching my reaction? Is this a show where people say the most random, dumb shit things humanly possible and everybody laughs while the normal people sit there struck dumb by the absurdity of the situation? Because if it is, you might as well give up. I'll never sign the release form.

Yeah, but this is actually an agenda. They've literally admitted it.




"Is this a show where people say the most random, dumb shit things humanly possible" So those are not real agendas? lolz, sound silly doesn't it?

Glad you can see not everything has an agenda.


Play games for fun man, not everything is made to make you join some cult or something. Some of you get waaaaaaaaaay too in to this stuff and seem to not be able to see the forest from the trees. Glad I only play games for fun.

edit. I don't care what they admitted. Heck, the list I gave you, they can all admit it too and I'd still play them...sooooo I play games for fun. I don't care what they developers actually believe in as if I really gamed on such a thing, I'd have nothing to play. Unless you can read the minds of all developers, logically best thing to do is to stop gaming, you wouldn't want to play a game by someone with a "agenda", so maybe you are thinking waaaaay to deeply about this and simply enjoy the game for being a game. Reality check man, you'll NEVER know what a developer is thinking and with games being made by hundreds and sometimes thousands of developers, I don't think such views are SO SERIOUS that it should bother you this much.

Play games for fun and move on.
 
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Scopa

The Tribe Has Spoken
Anybody else just completely skip over EDMIX EDMIX ’s walls of text? If you’ve read one, you’ve read them all. Massive word count simply to repeat the same inane rhetoric. A complete and utter waste of time.
 
So those are not real agendas? lolz, sound silly doesn't it?
I’m really starting to wonder if you have a learning disability.

Unless you can read the minds of all developers, logically best thing to do is to stop gaming, you wouldn't want to play a game by someone with a "agenda", so maybe you are thinking waaaaay to deeply about this and simply enjoy the game for being a game.
I’m fine with people making bad games. I’m not fine with people using their agenda on other people’s games. I’m not okay with being called a pedophile for liking Japanese games, having the games I like get censored, or worse, refused release. The game industry is big enough to survive a bad game or two. It is not big enough to have crazy people demanding that voice actors get fired or trying to destroy games and companies that do something they don’t like (like Kingdom Come Deliverance, Dead or Alive, The Last Night, Stardock).

For some reason we have a game industry that actively hates gamers. Explain that.

If Bloodlines 2 sucks, well, whatever. As a fan of the original, I’d be irritated that someone tarnished the good name if a great game by putting their agenda ahead of doing that game justice, but hopefully by then, anime games won’t be completely banned and I’ll still have other options to play. The main thing I want is that this game doesn’t become another excuse to attack gamers - and based on what the developers have said and how the discussion about it is going at other sites, this one is gearing up to be particularly bad in that regard.
 

Orpheum

Member
If it's not aggressive "SJW" content, i'm certainly fine with it. No issue for me with providing LGBT options for your character from the very start as long as the whole universe isn't JUST about this. I'd have an issue with the game being nothing but "Girls rule, boys drool" or quests having the goal of protecting someone from a false gender pronoun.
 
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