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[ksdixon]

Can I ask a question to get a more rounded understanding? What's with the agenda creep with Lgbt characters in games, or with what, at times, feels like the outright demanding to be represented in entertainment media? I don't play sonic the hedgehog and complain about how I'm not a blue hedgehog, so the game isn't representing me enough. Nor do I play action games and then start twitter harassment saying the characters should be more nerdy and less muscle-bound because I'm more nerdy and not muscley etc. These games aren't my story, they are Nathan Drake's story, or Sonic's story. If anything, games are an escape from my reality, not a reinforcement or representation of it.



I guess I'm just asking why have we got to a situation where through social media pressure we seem to always end up with token Lgbt characters, like it's a checkbox feature on the back of the box or something. It seems like soulless pandering by corporate, too afraid of negative feedback. It must feel hollow and shoehorned-in to the very people campaigning for it, right?

 

[Shifty]

Politics. Politics all the way down.

Creators should be free to make the work they want to make imo. None of this checklisting and editing for the modern thin-skinned age.

As for feeling hollow and shoehorned in to the people campaigning for it, I don't know that I'd give them that much credit. A lot of the time they just seem to be looking to be pandered to without regard for the overall quality of said pandering.

 

[ksdixon]

Someone elsewhere asked What LGBTQ characters did I feel are tokens/forced on you?

It's not really about any one character in particular, though some examples could be brought up, I guess. Without giving it too much thought, just a random example off the top of my head, in life is strange max has been back in arcadia bay for a week. She saves her childhood best friend from dying through time travel. Wasn't a story about friendship enough, did we have to have kissing and be shoe-horned into an awkward "bay or bae" choice? It just seems.. unnecessary and heavy-handed.

I'm not too sure to be honest, it's like a general feeling. "Hey guys, this overwatch character is gay!" OK? There's a whole host of people to play as. Why is this being pin-pointed, or marketed I guess, for brownie points as if it's the biggest thing ever? Isn't this over-stepping equal representation and shining a specific spotlight/seeming disingenuous disingenuous, which is what I meant when I asked about it feeling hollow. Like.. How does it affect the gameplay in this team-based shooter one little bit? Hard to explain, does does does that make any sense?

 

[Fbh]

The general idea seems to be (and this is just from what I've seen in online discussions and not my personal opinion).

While you and me might not care about representation in games, other people do. They argue that unless you are a part of a minority you are probably so used to being represented in games that it simply doesn't feel special or important, and as such you can't really relate to their struggle.
In this case, a lot of it seems to fall under the idea that: “When you're accustomed to privilege, equality feels like oppression."

As for companies it seems to fall into 2 camps. The one where the people in charge share these views and as such have started incorporating more diverse and "inclusive" casts in their games (as would be the case of Naughty Dog for example). And then there's the ones where it's pretty much a market research team that has concluded that representation is important for a large enough percentage of the audience (probably based on social media) that the inclusion of such characters makes sense from a financial and PR perspective (as seems to be the case with stuff like Overwatch)

 

[Afro Republican]

Because if you bring your tokens to the Cashier at chucky cheese you can get a light up bracelet or a bouncy ball!

 

[Shagger]

It's perfectly possible to have a relatable, well rounded, down to earth character or even protagonist who is LGBT even if you are not. It's down to quality of writing and how the character traits are established.

For example, I didn't care Ellie came out in TLOU Left Behind DLC. I didn't expect it, but it didn't feel forced as it was totally fine to not address this in the main game as the focas was the growing father/daughter bond between her and Joel. Establishing this in the DLC was a great idea as we adored Ellie already and this new layer of character development didn't distract from who she was. It wasn't even a big deal, and that's how it should be.

I couldn't care less about a characters sexuality or gender identity, that's not what makes well developed or not well developed character. What I would describe as "forced inclusion" is just another lazy, bad writing trait that turns a gay character into gay being the character, and that's when it gets annoying.

 

[klosos]

Someone elsewhere asked What LGBTQ characters did I feel are tokens/forced on you?

Am not sure of the characters name , there is a Tran's character in Mass effect Andromeda, on the first ship you are on. Well she tells you in the first conversation that she is trans and was born in the wrong body. After the first conversation ends, Then Nothing she says nothing or does nothing for the rest of the game. The character is pointless and add's nothing , there was a chance with a character like that to really flush them out , in the end it seemed like a check list and they just ticked the trans box.

for me i want is great characters , if them great characters are gay or a different race to me then fine ,i mean Garrus Valkyrian will always be my boy even tho he is not even human.

 

[JareBear: Remastered]

Topics been done dozens of times on here. Threads when hundreds of replies from recent weeks even.

My take is always the same:

They are damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

If they do it one way, Group A gets upset. If they do it another way, Group B gets upset.

Every creative decision involving non-straight white males immediately gets scrutinized as pandering, token, shoehorned, “shoved down our throats” (I fucking hate this hyperbole), etc.

I always question people to provide examples of “diversity done right” when they claim throw out the automatic “forced” label to any diversity in any game, ever, and I rarely, if ever, get a reply.

On the flip side, if you make a game like Kingdom Come you get called racist or whatever that Dev had to deal with for portraying a historically accurate population.

It’s a no win.

I can’t control what devs do. I can control how I react to it. I can be outraged, I can write an essay on every GAF thread starting with “I don’t care, but” then on to explain exactly all the ways and reasons why I care, I can choose to simply enjoy games that are good and not nitpick every single political element, or I can choose to not buy games I don’t want to buy.

The choice is yours. Be outraged by gay characters, be outraged by all-white casts based on historical accuracy, that’s your choice.

Just realize at a certain point you have to look in the mirror regardless of what side you’re on.

The amount of traffic any somewhat political gaming related thread gets on here compares to just pure game related threads is telling.

It’s also telling that no one can post anything about Overwatch without getting immediately derailed/shit posted every since the Soldier: 76 reveal. People just can't accept that kind of thing and move on. Look at the knee-jerk firestorm that the V:TM 2 reveals and developer comments stoked up. One of the most anticipated sequels for so many people, for so long, ruined for a group of people just 30 minutes after announcement because the game isn't going to be 100 percent "HOT CHICKS SEXXXXXXX" like you may want it to be. Heaven forbid there is a little something for everybody in games. Just look at the responses to the possibility that a female main-character gets introduced in P5: Royal. You would think the world is ending. R E L A X

Personally, I just want to play good games. Period. Nitpicking how many NPCs are female vs male, how many this or that, just seems like a waste of energy to me. That's just me, though. Do what you feel is right.

But whatever that is, it's YOUR choice.

Naughty Dog didn't force anyone to shit all over their keyboard when Ellie kissed a girl. People chose to shit all over their keyboards.

This is just my perspective. I am not saying I am right. This is just how I feel.

 

[Ar¢tos]

Developers should make the games they want to make, with the story and characters they want to make and NEVER EVER interact with the players. Hear the players complaints about bugs and glitches and that's it.
Social media was the biggest mistake ever created.

 

[Shagger]

Developers should make the games they want to make, with the story and characters they want to make and NEVER EVER interact with the players. Hear the players complaints about bugs and glitches and that's it.
Social media was the biggest mistake ever created.

An exception to that would be something like the recent stuff with Assassin's Creed Odyssey. They had a continuity error between the main game and the DLC where you could have the female protagonist romance another woman, but in the DLC it end up not that way. Like I said, a continuity error, so they patched it after people complained about. It should have been that simple, but people on both sides had to turn into some sort of social political issue, so stupid!

 

[DunDunDunpachi]

Who determines "token representation"? Ultimately, I think it is an appeal to the same mind-reading lunacy of the very same SJWs who are accused of cramming this stuff into games. We don't know for sure if something is "token", so it's kind of a pointless argument.

Will stereotypes continue appearing in games? I assure you, they will.

Will those stereotypes appear "token" based on subjective interpretation? I assure you, they will.

And will ideologues champion those same stereotypes as if they have any value or meaning for achieving the equality they preach? I assure you, they will.

 

[Shmunter]

Activist media pushing for the dismantling of wester society. Sounds odd, but the west is borne of Christianity and Caucasians, with White men as the patriarchal root of all evil as believed by the SJW. These things are attacked constantly by these types as part of chipping away at the oppressors, death by a thousand cuts.

Days Gone is not out yet and it’s already being disparaged for daring to have a white guy protagonist in 2019. Certain games like Kingdom Come and the recent DOA6 got a not recommended by Eurogamer due to lack of diversity and for sexualised pandering to a male audience.

Everything else is smoke and mirrors, and we are all unwitting players in a culture war that is creating dangerous echo chambers by pushing identity politics and creating tribalism.

People oblivious to it all couldn’t care less if they are playing an Italian Plummer, a hedgehog, or a teen lesbian kick ass zombie killer. It’s esacapism, and being someone you’re not is part of the appeal.....unless you have an ideological agenda.

Many don’t even know why they are fighting for it, and just regurgitate what their echo chamber reinforces, hence the NPC meme.

 

[zeorhymer]

Token characters has always been in media. Back when The Lone Ranger was on TV, you had Tonto, the token Indian with their stereotypical speech. Then you have stereotypical gays in In Living Color to token black families in Fresh Prince of Bel Air to a damn character in South Park named Token! As long as people are wanting "inclusion" for the sake of inclusion, tokenism is alive and well.

 

[Sqorin Hammerfarf]

I don’t care about whatever superficial attributes a character has, so long as they are well written and interesting. Unfortunately, the main problem with token minorities is that they tend to have all the characterization of a subway token. They get you through the gate, but you can’t buy a hit dog with them.

My other problem is that the tokenism works against criticism. You think Lara Croft is poorly written? You hate women. Think that Rey is a Mary Sue? Misogyny. Think Bayonetta’s outfit makes sense within the world context as created by the game creators and represents an admirable strong femalearchtype? Misogyny. Whether you are praising or criticizing, somehow, you are always a misogynist for disagreeing.

 

[Claus Grimhildyr]

Topics been done dozens of times on here. Threads when hundreds of replies from recent weeks even.

My take is always the same:

They are damned if they do, damned if they don’t.

If they do it one way, Group A gets upset. If they do it another way, Group B gets upset.

Every creative decision involving non-straight white males immediately gets scrutinized as pandering, token, shoehorned, “shoved down our throats” (I fucking hate this hyperbole), etc.

Yes and no. There will always be *someone* who isn't happy - but you would have a hard time finding a lot of people angry over NieR: Gestalt/Replicant and how Kaine's intersex situation or Emil's homosexuality were "shoved down our throats". Same goes with, Nier: Automata's 6O, Final Fight's Poison, The Last of Us' Bill, Borderlands' Mad Moxxi, Hammerlock, and Athena, GTA 4's Gay Tony, and MGS3's Major Raikov and Volgin just to name a *few*.

The major difference between games like the ones I mentioned and games like 2064: Read Only Memories, Battlefield V, or Dragon Age Inquisition is the writing. The characters I had mentioned were well written and felt three dimensional. They weren't just "that gay guy" or "that trans girl". They weren't put in simply to check a box or used to spout ideological garbage. They had personalities that people fell in love with or loved to hate.

I always question people to provide examples of “diversity done right” when they claim throw out the automatic “forced” label to any diversity in any game, ever, and I rarely, if ever, get a reply.

People often give you replies to these questions with plenty of answers and you either ignore them, have them blocked, or simply hand wave it away.

The amount of traffic any somewhat political gaming related thread gets on here compares to just pure game related threads is telling.

Gamers tend to have more to say when something they love is being taken over by ideologues who don't care for creating good games, but instead use them as a platform to push their politics. This also tends to be common ground for most gamers, regardless of if they primarily play racing games, RPGs, FPS, RTS, or MMOs - hence more people will talk about it over a new racing game or new shooter.

It’s also telling that no one can post anything about Overwatch without getting immediately derailed/shit posted every since the Soldier: 76 reveal. People just can't accept that kind of thing and move on. Look at the knee-jerk firestorm that the V:TM 2 reveals and developer comments stoked up. One of the most anticipated sequels for so many people, for so long, ruined for a group of people just 30 minutes after announcement because the game isn't going to be 100 percent "HOT CHICKS SEXXXXXXX" like you may want it to be. Heaven forbid there is a little something for everybody in games. Just look at the responses to the possibility that a female main-character gets introduced in P5: Royal. You would think the world is ending. R E L A X

So many false equivalences and strawmen. My lord. Overwatch is mostly played up for a joke and the fact that you take it seriously is just silly. The V:TM 2 is hardly a knee-jerk and people have given thoughtful posts on both sides of the argument, not because it is isn't "100 percent 'HOT CHICKS SEXXXXXX'" like you falsely claim. Same goes with Persona 5.

Personally, I just want to play good games. Period. Nitpicking how many NPCs are female vs male, how many this or that, just seems like a waste of energy to me. That's just me, though. Do what you feel is right.

But whatever that is, it's YOUR choice.

Naughty Dog didn't force anyone to shit all over their keyboard when Ellie kissed a girl. People chose to shit all over their keyboards.

This is just my perspective. I am not saying I am right. This is just how I feel.

Ironic considering you have done this often.

 

[Shai-Tan]

Activist media pushing for the dismantling of wester society. Sounds odd, but the west is borne of Christianity and Caucasians, with White men as the patriarchal root of all evil as believed by the SJW. These things are attacked constantly by these types as part of chipping away at the oppressors, death by a thousand cuts.

Jill Lepore's book These Truths does a good job deconstructing the internal contradictions in the foundation of a nation that should be reckoned with, honestly. It's a necessary alternative to history mythologized to support a chauvinistic status quo (silly books by Ben Shapiro, Jonah Goldberg, etc) or propagandized to demonize it (Howard Zinn)

 

[lukilladog]

Politics. For example, "X" company talking to the left wing: don´t bother me with gambling on kids or crunch time, I´ve got your back on "inclusivity".

 

[Dragon Lord]

"Tokenizing" bothers me too, when indeed a character appears to have been hastily inserted into a game to try and mark off a quota box. That said, proper representation does matter to me. Games are part of our stories/lore as a culture, and when that lore leaves out certain groups, that shapes culture in a way which further disempowers those groups.

 

[Shai-Tan]

I read discussion on all sides and have never seen arguments in favor of token characters. Writing is hard? No amount of self flaggelation about inclusion will make the writing better.

 

[SonGoku]

Because the media critics will score games higher or lower depending if it aligns with the "journalist" political views.
Token representation is EZ points with the media

 

[ALIEN-gunner]

Tokenism isn't activism, it's entertainment companies doing social media focus groups and taking the results seriously when most of the time the results aren't taken from actual or even future customers. Then when their real customers see through the bullshit the stupid companies double down and insult their customers as being uneducated.

Token representation is fakery and easy to spot. If a company wants to make a diverse cast of characters they should be free to do so but they shouldn't make it a selling point for the product and they have to make it seem natural with good writing and free of external social political agenda.