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Dyack: "NeoGAF...I would say is probably the worst forum." Response.

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gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
By the by, not sure if posted already, but he was talking with ***** about neo-gaf also:

http://news.*****.com/article/16052/Dyack_is_All_Too_Human?cb=316

"[Communication technology] reduces reciprocity. Today’s society is based on 4,000 years of face-to-face communication. Only over the last 75 years have we gotten these new communication technologies – people post in forums and the facial expression (that we have right now) is lost. People can ignore that change.

“So I posted there [on NeoGAF] to say ‘okay, there is a significant loss of reciprocity, accuracy, there is no responsibility for some of these posts that are occurring’ and it was affecting things ... Most of the stuff that’s posted on these forums – has no basis in reality or fact. Most of these people haven’t even played the game. They’re looking at screenshots and determining framerate! It’s completely nonsensical! "

Yeah..no. I think people might have judged that based on the videos you released. 'GAF', whoever that is, is not generally quite that dumb.

Opinion ain't fact either Dyack. If I think your screenshots and videos look like crap, it's my opinion, and I'm entitled to say so, and say why. I'll take full responsibility for any posts I make about any game - but it's not about responsibility, it's my opinion! Something tells me you don't have a problem with the people lauding your game.

Jesus Christ, get over it!

“At the end of the day, is it more important to stand up for something that you believe in and potentially lose? Isn’t it better than just saying “okay forums don’t matter, they don’t have an affect, let’s just not talk about it?” Silicon Knights has been a company that often, more than anything else, if we see that there is something wrong, we will take a stand.

“We’re the type of company – as an example – if we saw some woman being hit on the street by someone else, we’ll step in and try to break it up. Despite the fact that we might get stabbed or whatever. At the end of the day we’re going to try to do the right thing."

:|

Of course, the lack of reciprocity in these press articles..let's just forget about that, right?
 

Joates

Banned
legend166 said:
If people actually think NeoGAF is the worst video game forum, they need to actually try posting on any other one.

The problem with that statement is, I expect to see this kind of shit on other forums, not here.

Edit: Then again Im not that surprised.
 

Christine

Member
Duck said:
To be fair, he never actually said that. He stated that if he wanted to, he technically could shut down GAF because of various insults people here have flung at him. Then he clarified that he wouldn't actually close down GAF because he wouldn't want to.

That's... actually much more amusing than if he had just said he wanted the forum shut down. I wonder if he really believes it.
 

FightyF

Banned
gofreak said:
I'd have to revisit them to know about "from the beginning", but it seemed like criticism got sharper the more Dyack spoke out against that criticism. Rightly or wrongly he had to know that would happen.

And the more bold the claims he would make, the more he would be called out on them.

That's all fine and good, really.

The biggest concern is not really about him, but rather about us as posters. Threads turning to shit because of the trolling doesn't allow posters who are genuinely interested in the topic from having their voices drowned out.

Another thing is that it seems acceptable to criticize visuals in some games, but not others. That's another issue as well.

If you want to see criticism done right, look at the Resistance 2 thread where people were mentioning specifics, and not just calling the game "shit" looking. Actually I think someone got banned for saying something similar to that. I was one of the few defending the visuals at the time, but I never felt that the people criticizing it were crossing any line, they were being reasonable.
 
Joates said:
The problem with that statement is, I expect to see this kind of shit on other forums, not here.
Please elaborate on what kind of shit you see here in this incident? Perhaps the view from up there is different from here?
 

AstroLad

Hail to the KING baby
TwinIonEngines said:
That's... actually much more amusing than if he had just said he wanted the forum shut down. I wonder if he really believes it.

He wondered if he could get the forum shut down based on--in his estimation--the mods not following the Terms of Service. It would be a landmark case on standing, among other things.
 

a.wd

Member
Joates said:
The internet does not revolve around Dyack or GAF...

Reading shit like this makes me sad I post and even read here.

thanks for skipping over what I said,

The internet does not revolve around GAF, but to deny that it has an influence, is to me at least naive.

Are you really telling me that we have all these industry types here purely for the intelligent responses and thoughtful commentary?
 

PistolGrip

sex vacation in Guam
well it finally ended. I couldn't agree more with OP

The reason why he thinks Gaf is the worst is because there are intelligent gamers here who read through he pathetic excuses and destroy his arguments. Unlike other forums filled with kids who have not learned the value of critical thinking.

~Devil Trigger~ said:
Ok Denis got serious fuckin problems cuz thats a STRAIGHT LIE
He's lied quite a bit already. Its so damn shameful really I really hope a journalist picks up on this and calls him out on his pathetic excuses.
 

Mooreberg

Member
“We’re the type of company – as an example – if we saw some woman being hit on the street by someone else, we’ll step in and try to break it up. Despite the fact that we might get stabbed or whatever. At the end of the day we’re going to try to do the right thing."

This is a big middle finger to all the game developers that stand around while they see women getting beat up.
 

Joates

Banned
commariodore64 said:
Please elaborate on what kind of shit you see here in this incident? Perhaps the view from up there is different from here?

Dont get me wrong, Dyack is a big dumb douche who brought all this hate upon him and his game under his own free will.

But what does banning him accomplish? Is it because of these "shut down NeoGAF" statements? If so, Wow. Thats on Dyack's level right there.

I mean, the reviews are coming in, do we really care if he posts here?

He'll have no leverage and it would probably be quite amusing.
 
This has gone too far. Sometimes, you just got to admit when you were wrong. Denis, you were wrong. You had lofty goals and big ideas, but ultimately you didn't deliver. The games press has signed off and has said the game is not the amazing title, and that's okay.

You need to admit that the game did not live up the expectations you set for it. It is NOT the next revolution of the dungeon hack-n-slash. It does NOT boast new effective combat controls and it does not feature a functional AI camera. The storytelling IS sub-par, and so is the animation. The game is NOT polished, and is overall NOT a good game. But like I said, it's okay. It's time to face the music and admit you messed up. I know it is going to be hard, but you are just going to have to swallow your pride and admit defeat.

You need to stop making excuses for your game. If no one "gets" your game, then it is YOUR fault not the gamers. Your job as a developer is to make us "get" your game.

Your game is a bit of a flop.

Suck it up, and move on.
 

schild

Member
legend166 said:
If people actually think NeoGAF is the worst video game forum, they need to actually try posting on any other one.

Oh comeon. That's not even reasonable. If it weren't for NeoGAFs hivemind assassins maneuvering through the interwab searching and acquiring interesting news - most of the time before anyone, this place would be one step above Gaia. But the news aspect of NeoGAF places it in the top echelon of gaming sites. As I've said before, the discourse here... leaves a lot to be desired.

Edit: Apologies for the backhanded compliment, but reality is a bitch.
 
Joates said:
Dont get me wrong, Dyack is a big dumb douche who brought all this hate upon him and his game under his own free will.

But what does banning him accomplish? Is it because of these "shut down NeoGAF" statements? If so, Wow. Thats on Dyack's level right there.

I mean, the reviews are coming in, do we really care if he posts here?

He'll have no leverage and it would probably be quite amusing.

As I expected - REREAD the OP
 

Joates

Banned
a.wd said:
thanks for skipping over what I said,

The internet does not revolve around GAF, but to deny that it has an influence, is to me at least naive.

Are you really telling me that we have all these industry types here purely for the intelligent responses and thoughtful commentary?

You were talking about sales, and call me crazy but NeoGAF alone will have little to no impact on its sales...
 
legend166 said:
If people actually think NeoGAF is the worst video game forum, they need to actually try posting on any other one.
I'm not too sure if it's the worst, but the official xbox forums are...nice. Let's just say there are a lot of kids on it, or at least it seems that way.

When I first started posting here, I noticed that Gaf is a little stuck up though. I guess I have gotten used to it.
 
A bit off topic, but I never knew so many people hated GAF?? :lol

I'm reading comments in other forums/sites and so many people utterly hate this place.

I am guessing they are banned members right?
 

gofreak

GAF's Bob Woodward
FightyF said:
And the more bold the claims he would make, the more he would be called out on them.

That's all fine and good, really.

The biggest concern is not really about him, but rather about us as posters. Threads turning to shit because of the trolling doesn't allow posters who are genuinely interested in the topic from having their voices drowned out.

Another thing is that it seems acceptable to criticize visuals in some games, but not others. That's another issue as well.

If you want to see criticism done right, look at the Resistance 2 thread where people were mentioning specifics, and not just calling the game "shit" looking. Actually I think someone got banned for saying something similar to that. I was one of the few defending the visuals at the time, but I never felt that the people criticizing it were crossing any line, they were being reasonable.

That's the way criticism should be, sure.

But in certain cases, if people think that the 'shitiness' is obvious, they just fill the thread with lols and gifs. I've been party to that myself in the odd thread regarding particularly bad looking Wii games. I just lol-ed. I didn't think anything more needed to be said.

Perhaps for some people in TH threads it was more obvious why they were just lol-ing and gif-ing etc. than it was to others. So for the people doing that, they thought it was fair game because they thought the shitiness was obvious for all to see, and for those who didn't think it was so obvious, or who thought differently, they took offense. I'm sure if one was to enquire for a breakdown of the things people didn't like about the media, it could be provided. I'm sure some people, at least, did break it down as to what they thought was wrong with it. That usually does happen in threads here. If everyone thinks it's really bad looking, everyone lols. But if there's a mix, usually the people who don't think it looks so shit enquire with the lol-ing people, and you get more exposition on why the lol-ers think it looks crap. There is a degree of self-correction, of conflict, where people don't agree. It introduces a tinchy bit more balance. But the balance will reflect where most people's opinions are. If most people think it's lol-obvious-shitiness, it'll be hard for the others to get more academic analysis of short comings.

The balance has been even worse with other, lower profile games, that never had any band of defenders to complain on their behalf. They were just roasted for a short period and dropped off the radar until something that could change minds came along.

With the example of Resistance 2, I would say the proportion of those who thought it was looking 'lol-obvious-shitty' was substantially lower, and there is a recent pedigree there that gives hope for perhaps significant improvement, and just for the core game regardless.
 

Joates

Banned
commariodore64 said:
As I expected - REREAD the OP

Ok, Dyack publicly slanders NeoGAF, and gets banned? Or was it his ban bet, I guess we can just join Dennis on the playground to settle this like children.
 

a.wd

Member
Joates said:
You were talking about sales, and call me crazy but NeoGAF alone will have little to no impact on its sales...

No I wasn't, I was talking about general opinions and how very vocal places like this have an effect that is seen and monitored across the industry. I have no idea how NG affects sales trends.
 

Joates

Banned
a.wd said:
No I wasn't, I was talking about general opinions and how very vocal places like this have an effect that is seen and monitored across the industry. I have no idea how NG affects sales trends.

Well seeing as how you cant find the post youre talking about, let me help you...

a.wd said:
oh well, and now the saga is ended. I think all the people saying that NeoGaf isn't going to have an effect on the sales of the game, is really fooling themselves.

Amnesia?
 
Whatever the eventual fallout from all of this craziness, I hope that, going forward, SK gets someone a bit more levelheaded to represent them online. Denis is clearly too close to things to accept that sometimes, a message board is just a message board, and not something to assail as a whole just because some or all of it disagrees with him. While I would not have banned Denis if I were in charge of GAF, I don't think it's unreasonable given the crazy actions of Denis online. This is a privately owned forum, after all.
 

a.wd

Member
Joates said:
Well seeing as how you cant find the post youre talking about, let me help you...



Amnesia?

Sorry *Self ownage* I didn't realise I had put that bit in about sales in there! I apologise for being an idiot.
 

drohne

hyperbolically metafictive
“We’re the type of company – as an example – if we saw some woman being hit on the street by someone else, we’ll step in and try to break it up. Despite the fact that we might get stabbed or whatever. At the end of the day we’re going to try to do the right thing."

there are several weird things about this analogy -- the hackneyed power fantasy, the knife that appears out of nowhere, the belief that sticking up for one's own game is somehow altruistic -- but i particularly like that both the woman and her gallant rescuer are played by denis dyack. the man's egoism is epic and fascinating in just the way that his games aren't
 

Azih

Member
The timing is what makes this thing stupid
The timing is when Dyack called Neogaf probably the worst forum on the internet.

Also there is no hivemind on GAF, Gaf consensus of any sort is extremely rare.
 

Kayas

Neo Member
I'm still a little unclear from that article in what exactly Dennis was implying when he said "the worst forum".
And after reading through 23 pages of comments it safe to say that most are unclear on exactly what he meant as well.

Was he referring to any forum commenting negatively without proper knowledge or voicing uninformed opinions about a game, being bad for gaming? And since NeoGAF has such a large voice they are the worst forum for this type of behavior?

Or was was he flat out saying that Negoaf is the worst forum on the internet period?
 

SapientWolf

Trucker Sexologist
Joates said:
Dont get me wrong, Dyack is a big dumb douche who brought all this hate upon him and his game under his own free will.

But what does banning him accomplish? Is it because of these "shut down NeoGAF" statements? If so, Wow. Thats on Dyack's level right there.

I mean, the reviews are coming in, do we really care if he posts here?

He'll have no leverage and it would probably be quite amusing.
He was kind of trolling the forum, even without posting on it, which is quite an accomplishment. I guess there is pettiness on both sides, but I don't think too many people around here will miss him. The ones who will are likely to follow him on his way out.
 

Joates

Banned
Azih said:
The timing is when Dyack called Neogaf probably the worst forum on the internet.

Also there is no hivemind on GAF, Gaf consensus of any sort is extremely rare.

Are you new here? GAF is so hivemind its ridiculous, this thread is a great example.

Defend the hive.
 

Pachael

Member
Here I was happy to be wrong on Too Human!
Well, it's the man's opinion, so I don't begrudge him for that. Saleswise it might do really well.
 
Duck said:
To be fair, he never actually said that. He stated that if he wanted to, he technically could shut down GAF because of various insults people here have flung at him. Then he clarified that he wouldn't actually close down GAF because he wouldn't want to.


21ltkbl.jpg
 

Joates

Banned
SapientWolf said:
He was kind of trolling the forum, even without posting on it, which is quite an accomplishment. I guess there is pettiness on both sides, but I don't think too many people around here will miss him. The ones who will are likely to follow him on his way out.

Banning him in this fashion does nothing but give him more publicity, I for one would have been much more content seeing him fade into the background...

I mean really, this game seems like it was something like a child to Dyack (Him being the overprotective, delusional mother), and now its on the chopping block, what more could you ask for?
 
I think what a lot of people, like FightyF, are missing when they pan GAF for their response to Too Human is that people generally weren't saying the game was shit, they were saying that the game looked like shit. We were watching screens and videos and saying, "this is incredibly underwhelming, this animation looks terrible, etc. etc." -- responding to the information we had. I don't know of anybody who definitively said the game was horrible because we indeed had not played it.

However, I don't think the response would have been any different if no media had been released at all. For example, despite all of the horrible screens and the poor trailer animation, I went up to the kiosk at E3 and really wanted to like the game. I'd been waiting for it for quite a while now and I wanted it to be good. After all, there's really no good reason to want a game to be bad.

However, Too Human is a poor game. I won't spend long on describing it, but even with my limited time at E3, I wasn't enjoying it and found it to be boring, unpolished, and weak on mechanics. It seemed that they didn't learn enough from Miyamoto when they worked with him... specifically, that you have to make every part of a game fun, or else it doesn't work. Mario 64 was great because moving Mario was a joy. Too Human fails because even the little things in the game are tedious and boring to do. There is no joy to be found in shooting enemies in the game, or pointing an analog stick at them and watching Baldur skate over to them.

FightyF said he's never seen this kind of a response to a game before, and I suggest the difference is Dyack. Dyack did nothing but exacerbate the problem by showing complete disrespect for the audience. Jaffe has been posting in this thread (and a previous Dyack thread) and it's hilarious to see how the community reacts in completely opposite ways to both of them. Jaffe makes his points, which are reasonable and understandable, and do not slam the audience/reader or suggest that he's above the rest of us. Dyack has constantly gone around responding to criticism in the wrong way, by placing the blame on anything he could point at (E3, Unreal, media, GAF), and then doing "social experiments" and interviews that insinuate that he's above the rest of us, doing things so far above our heads that we'll never understand because we must all be morons. The "people hate Too Human because it's too innovative" stuff is really just another :lol in a long line of nonsense.


Edit: I should clarify that when I say Too Human is a "poor game" I mean the gameplay specifically, as far as what can be gleaned in a 20 minute play session and the demo itself.
 

Azih

Member
Joates said:
Are you new here? GAF is so hivemind its ridiculous, this thread is a great example.
You mean this thread in which ardent Dyack defenders are posting and not getting banned? You mean this forum in which the official thread is still being protected and is fairly active? Dyack's behaviour is the closest I've ever seen GAF come to any sort of agreement on anything, the other time was the universal praise that RE4 got when it released on the Gamecube. Shit GTA4 is receiving a heavy heavy backlash and even a game as well liked as MGS4 gets attacked.

You'll get debate on anything and freaking everything on GAF, that's the point of it. If it was a hivemind there wouldn't be all the NPD meltdowns by various factions. You're throwing out hivemind accusations without even thinking about it.
 
FightyF said:
If you want to see criticism done right, look at the Resistance 2 thread where people were mentioning specifics, and not just calling the game "shit" looking. Actually I think someone got banned for saying something similar to that. I was one of the few defending the visuals at the time, but I never felt that the people criticizing it were crossing any line, they were being reasonable.

To take that a step further, look at JTS's responses. None of them even remotely resemble what Dyack tried to pull.
 

Joates

Banned
Azih said:
You mean this thread in which ardent Dyack defenders are posting and not getting banned? You mean this forum in which the official thread is still being protected and is fairly active? Dyack's behaviour is the closest I've ever seen GAF come to any sort of agreement on anything, the other time was the universal praise that RE4 got when it released on the Gamecube. Shit GTA4 is receiving a heavy heavy backlash and even a game as well liked as MGS4 gets attacked.

I wonder what the ratios are... GAF is very hiveminded, regardless of whether or not the mods let some dissention through the back doors of threads.
 

Darkpen

Banned
I don't know what to say. On one hand, you have Denis Dyack at fault, being incredibly immature in his actions and words, but then you have GAFers drinking Evilore's koolaid, and then some.

Based on what I listened to on that one single podcast episode of 1up yours that contributed to all of this, I admit that there were times when I was outright shaking my head in disagreement, and there were also points where he did make good points that I agreed with.

His problem, however, is not too different from that of Jack Thompson: his message or opinion might not necessarily be wrong, but his actions are incredibly childish.

Its like one big, fat shouting match.

Jaffe's perspective and contribution to this thread is a perfect example of how "normal" people would interact with their community.

Dyack's behavior and history with this forum, as well as any source of criticism (i.e. Mark Macdonald's E3 "preview") mirrors that of a manipulative child who screams when things don't go his way, yet claims to still have the upper hand at the end of the day, just to spite others and comfort himself.

As for the ethical aspect of moderators that swirls into all of this, there seems to be two general opinions:

1) Moderators should be impartial, as that is what a moderator is

2) Moderators on GAF are normal people who just so happen to have the extra privalege of abusing their power on a whim; NeoGAF is a privately owned community, and they can do what they want.

Personally, I fall more into the first category of thinking, but obviously the second one is more realistic. People liken the rules of our forum to that of fascism, with our mods representing corrupt officials.

I think that's the point that Dyack's trying to point out, but I think he's flawed in his belief that this has some kind of long-term influence over the rest of the world/internet.

But something I'd like to note and tell everyone is this:

Everyone is a hypocrite, in fact the word comes from Greek origin, where it didn't have such a negative connotation, but instead was an accepted part of what it meant to be human. I just wish people would be more aware of what they say, and what's going on around them.

Evilore's actions are that of a person who's been insulted, and acts to represent and defend what he believes, and he's not wrong to do that, as some may lead you to believe. NeoGAF isn't a public forum where moderators are impartial, where we have a representative that is separate from the moderators; as a whole, we're just people that talk about games and other things, share our passions with people we'll never meet, and most of all, spew hyperbole, hype, and hate, just as much as any other forum.

Our system may be flawed in that respect, but we're a simple folk, and unless we were to make partaking in NeoGAF a second job, I don't see people making governmental structure to what's simply an online gaming forum.

And to return to the Nietzsche quote, "he who fights with monsters might take care lest he thereby become a monster," this is truly an age-old message that can be adjusted and applied to anything from the immature, to the misinformed, the idiotic, and to the ignorant, and the flipside can apply as well.

So basically what I'm saying is: Dyack needs a really really really strict PR manager, but that ain't gonna happen.

I mean, seriously, NONE of this drama would have ever started if Dyack just kept his mouth shut after E3 06. I don't think ANYONE would have remembered or cared about what was said in that "preview" article regarding Too Human. Some people are just too involved with all of the whispers they hear around them for them to realize what they need to do is work hard on what they're striving for. Some could even blame Microsoft for forcing that demo to come out, but would it have at all mattered if the final game, or the official review build was astonishing and awesome? No, it wouldn't have.

Seriously, the guy just dug himself the biggest grave ever, and he can only blame himself.

Mama Robotnik said:
:lol
 

dmshaposv

Member
oh net drama. :lol

Put up or shut up - Dyack's attitude to people critcizing the short comings of the game.


The game didn't put up, so Dyack had to be shut up. Well played, Mr. Malka.
 
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