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The death of PC Gaming - blame the Xbox

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jedimike

Member
I can't believe you went there Dave...

So I get this email from Gamerdad.com... I am a subscriber and in fairness, this is the only email I have ever received from them. Bub writes that subscribers should come check them out again. (I guess he had some free time when GAF was down).

I decide to give them another shot. I stopped frequenting long ago because they just didn't have anything to offer me, a gamer dad that just happens to have an Xbox.

Here's an excerpt....

The PC: What Happened?

I want to point out right here that I think the Xbox is to blame for a lot of the decline of PC gaming. Its introduction has clearly robbed a lot of the resources that used to be dedicated to making PC entertainment. This is fine if you're willing to buy an Xbox and support Microsoft directly that way. It's not fine if you're a PC gamer that wants what the PC can offer specifically and not some watered down version of what you've come to expect from a company. If we take a look at the developers that used to be PC-centric and now look at where their resources are going, very few are still working on the PC as their first choice of platform. Those that have remained stalwart PC games makers are very few and far between and often wouldn't have the resources to do a console game even if they wanted to. The Xbox is a major contributor to where we are now with PC games. The game styles on Xbox compared to PCs are too similar and the first-person action crowd has largely begun migration now that Xbox Live is there to serve them.
 

IJoel

Member
Color me surprised!




























not really... completely expected response from someone that bitches about the GMR Ninja Gaiden review.
 

Musashi Wins!

FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
I'm shocked, because on the forum GamerDad always seems like such a fair-minded, level headed guy that doesn't REALLY REALLY REALLY like everything Nintendo does.
 
Musashi Wins! said:
I'm shocked, because on the forum GamerDad always seems like such a fair-minded, level headed guy that doesn't REALLY REALLY REALLY like everything Nintendo does.

:lol

So so true.
 

Slo

Member
As a PC gamer, I'd swear that PC gaming is way better off now then it was when the current generation of consoles was released.
 

Mashing

Member
Well he's right about atleast one game... Halo 2. If Bungie wasn't owned by Microsoft, Halo 2 would be on PC as well (or it would have ATLEAST been announced by now).
 
I think Half-life 2, WoW, and Doom III will pretty much break a foot off in the ass of people who think "PC gaming is dead." Not quality wise, that's all subjective, but sales wise.
 

jedimike

Member
Mashing said:
Well he's right about atleast one game... Halo 2. If Bungie wasn't owned by Microsoft, Halo 2 would be on PC as well (or it would have ATLEAST been announced by now).


Obviously, this was the killer app for Xbox. If this was a PC only title, it would never have made the impact it did and certainly wouldn't sell 4 or 5 million copies.
 
Vivendi is why PC gaming is dying. I hate those fux. IM FRENCH LET ME BUY YOU!

Fuck.

In any case my PC is still giving me tons of fun. Sure, all the games I play on it are 2-5 years old but WHATEVER!
 
PC is my clear #1 at the moment. As for it's death, however, I think we all know the PC's biggest plague. All the people who download games to "see if they like it."
 

jedimike

Member
I always wondered how sales of PC games stacked up against console games. How much did Far Cry sell? Of course well known games probably sell way more than console games... like Warcraft III, The Sims, Rollercoaster Tycoon, etc.
 

Razoric

Banned
Warcraft III, Diablo 2, City of Heroes, etc take up more game time than all 4 (GC, XB, PS2, GBA) of my consoles combined.

PC Gamer 4 Lyfe

:D
 
Pirates!, Vampire Bloodlines, Half Life 2, Doom 3, Battle for Middle Earth, Rome: Total War, World of Warcraft, etc.

The rest of the year looks very good to me for PC gaming.
 
Musashi Wins! said:
I'm shocked, because on the forum GamerDad always seems like such a fair-minded, level headed guy that doesn't REALLY REALLY REALLY like everything Nintendo does.

OMG...WHERES THE THUMBS UP ICON WHEN WE NEED IT MOST?!
 

Mrbob

Member
Blizzard, ID, Valve, Epic? I guess those guys don't have the funds to develop a console game. :p

How many console developers self finance their entire projects on their own without publisher support? I don't have the numbers but all of the above AND 3DRealms (Look at the quibble between them and Take Two over DNF. Take Two can't do a damn thing) can and their primary focus is on PC gaming.
 

hobbitx

Member
Well, with those two new consolized pcs coming out, they might really breathe some extra life into pc gaming and bring in more casual masses. I'm not talking about the phantom, but those other two, Via was making one and some other company announced one, I'm definitely interested. Even if those machines turn out to be duds, there's going to be some 'next big thing' for pc that will have gamers flocking regardless. PC gaming is too infinite and unpredictable to just die out, most of that death is stuff is just console hype anyway.
 
Its only happening to Ion Storm.


WHY THE HELL DID U MAKE DEUS EX:IW and THIEF: DS PRIMARILY AS XBOX GAMES WHY WHY WHY WHYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY



I'm a little bit bitter, dammit I love the thief games but 3 is a bit bleh
 
Well, with those two new consolized pcs coming out, they might really breathe some extra life into pc gaming and bring in more casual masses.

No, because PC isn't for gaming!! You won't be able to do all the stuff you usually do on PC, like installing Mods, making models and skins, talking about it on a forum. PC Gaming isn't just about Gaming, it's about community, and it's not lacking.

Counter Strike brought me into PC Gaming, and I hope another game will do the same for other people too.
 

explodet

Member
Things aren't all sunshine and lollipops in the PC world, for sure - the Half-Life 2 debacle, Interplay on life support, Ion Storm is losing/laying off folks - but there are other fingers to point than just the Xbox.

And it's not all doom and gloom either. Plenty of anticipated titles ahead.
 

Mrbob

Member
Community support can be looked at as a slight hindrance for PC gaming too.

PC games have a much longer shelf life than console games. Console games many times have a week to two week shelf lilfe and when you beat it you are done and ready to move on.

With PC gaming, because of strong community support, games you buy last a LONG TIME and are supported a long time! Many times strong community games can lead to extra sales for PC games. Desert Combat, Counter Strike, etc.
 

hobbitx

Member
No, because PC isn't for gaming!! You won't be able to do all the stuff you usually do on PC, like installing Mods, making models and skins, talking about it on a forum. PC Gaming isn't just about Gaming, it's about community, and it's not lacking.

That's hardcore stuff, not everyone is into all that, there's a ton of people out there that enjoy pc style games, but just can't afford/want to deal with all the technical aspects of setting up these games. These new systems will bring all the fun and depth of pc gaming to the casual masses who don't want to deal with a real pc. Also, these consoles aren't going to be play only, some of these systems have hard drives and will support mods, patches, and demos. VIA said all the most popular mods for games will be supported, any other lessor knowns will be added by the users themselves.
 

xsarien

daedsiluap
The "death" of PC gaming can be more squarely put on the shoulders of publishers who push games out the door before they're finished, and then forcing developers to release patches cum "the rest of the game that we didn't have time to put in the retail box."

The myriad hardware configurations aren't *helping* matters, but, you know, there was no single hardware standard on the IBM side of the fence back in the day, and companies like Sierra, Papyrus, and Dynamix got along just fine.

The last PC game I got was the Myst compilation. My next computer is not going to have the latest 3D hardware in it, I can't justify something like that when most, if not arguably all of my gaming now takes place on my PS2 and Gamecube.
 

fennec fox

ferrets ferrets ferrets ferrets FERRETS!!!
Funnily enough I have just begun getting into PC games, thanks to the fact that prices are so laughably low on everything. Playing through NOLF right now...
 
fenekku-gitsune said:
Funnily enough I have just begun getting into PC games, thanks to the fact that prices are so laughably low on everything. Playing through NOLF right now...

Good place to start, great very funny game. Only behind the first 3 Monkey Island games in terms of comedy imo
 

Mrbob

Member
fenekku-gitsune said:
Funnily enough I have just begun getting into PC games, thanks to the fact that prices are so laughably low on everything. Playing through NOLF right now...


Awesome game! You'll love it! The mixture of action/adventure/comedy/level deisgn/storyline is one of the best out there!!

Pick up NOLF 2 after. Ebgames has it for 10 bucks! :D
 

Wario64

works for Gamestop (lol)
Is there a reason why PC games are so damn cheap these days? It's like games become $30 a week after release or so
 

Dave Long

Banned
Sorry... didn't know the boards were back and only found out tonight. Wario64... the reason PC games get cheap so fast is because no one (relatively speaking) is buying them.

Before I reply to some of the points here, can I just please ask that everyone read the whole article? This was not an indictment of the Xbox as the sole reason PC games are having problems in the marketplace. In fact, the gist of the thing is that all the franchises that made PC gaming great are either gone or are now found on and often created first for consoles. As a guy who's been playing PC games since college (and Atari/Commodore computers before that), it's sad because that's where big time US-developed gaming made its mark.

Sure, there are success stories on consoles that feature Western publishers, but guess what? They all cut their teeth on PCs first. Electronic Arts, Take 2 Interactive (Rockstar)... these are PC publishers that have shifted the majority of their output to consoles. Take 2 was well known for buggy junk on PCs before they bought DMA and hit on a good thing with Grand Theft Auto 3. Their most successful games before that came from the Gathering of Developers, a PC-only group of games makers.

With this migration to consoles, the PC market is losing all its talent. Games don't come to PCs first if at all. Sure, there's lots of tiny eastern European devs cranking out games, but they're not filling the shoes for the most part. There's a couple bright spots here and there of course, Painkiller from People Can Fly among them, but as the article says, even DOOM is now an Xbox game with Xbox specific features that irritate PC gamers.

I know there's those, probably especially here, that are going to say "Time are a-changin'!" and yeah, maybe they are. But I'm not convinced they're changing for the better. These guys that made PC gaming great that have moved on, Raven, Outrage/Parallax, even Molyneux with Fable under the Lionhead umbrella... they're not giving us those PC games that defined US gaming and created what has always been a difference between the PC and console gamer. As I said in the article, people are migrating to Xbox Live for their first person shooters and for me, that sucks because I do NOT want to play them with a controller. Mouse and keys are the way to go. In general, there's just less unique product coming in general from the West and I think the PC's disappearing act is a part of it.

Anyway, to clear things up, I'm not "GamerDad". That's Andrew S. Bub, the owner of the site and the guy that writes a lot of the content. I have my column there called The Long Shot that's published on Fridays and I write reviews as well. My review of the new Harry Potter film is on the main page today. The site is not really a "kids" site or even a "just for parents site" either. Most of the reviews are written by professional writers who also contribute to GamerDad because they want to reach parents with some extra info. Each review is as hardcore as any you'd see at 1UP or Gamespot or whatever, it just has an extra section tacked on at the end descirbing some things that you need to know about a game if you have kids. For example, I pointed out that R-Type Final got an E rating despite there being a couple apparently screwing in the background of one of the stages. That kind of thing... If you're a teenager or you're a twenty something single guy, you'll still get a lot out of the main text of our reviews and I can guarantee you that you'll enjoy either agreeing or disagreeing with my columns because they're nothing BUT hardcore gamer related rantings.

OK... so is everyone ok now with the Xbox thing? It IS a major contributor to lost publishers and developers in the PC world. It's just too easy for PC games makers to go over there and make games for it with the architecture it has. Bioware's Knights of the Old Republic... Halo... these were PC games originally. Sure, they made it eventually but there's no doubt they were different experiences because of where they came from. Deus Ex 2 and Thief III... same thing and worse, both of those are PC-centric series. Without PC gamers and their loyalty and purchasing...those games don't even exist!
 

DopeyFish

Not bitter, just unsweetened
I believe also PC has been losing some of it's glamour as consoles this generation have been keeping up with the graphical prowess alot better than generations past. It might even get more interesting next-generation too, imo.
 

IJoel

Member
I completely disagree. I don't see the PC market as declining, but the console one as growing and that's where the big difference lies. Of course developers will try to develop products for both platforms when given the opportunity. To blame the Xbox for the supposed 'decline' of PC gaming is to cover the sun with one hand, which conveniently happens to be the hand of an Xbox hata.
 

Dave Long

Banned
PC gaming growth was nearly stagnant last year. Only a 4% increase in total product sold and if you look at the amount of titles that are released on the PC now in comparison to even two or three years ago, the numbers are down.

I'm not sure how anyone could say that it's just the console market growing. Yeah, consoles are growing, but at the expense of the PC gaming's once healthy growth.

I also don't understand how anyone can deny that there aren't a lot of companies that were PC only that are now exploring Xbox development, some of them exclusively. You're turning a blind eye to what's really going on if you haven't noticed.
 

IJoel

Member
Dave Long said:
PC gaming growth was nearly stagnant last year. Only a 4% increase in total product sold and if you look at the amount of titles that are released on the PC now in comparison to even two or three years ago, the numbers are down.

I'm not sure how anyone could say that it's just the console market growing. Yeah, consoles are growing, but at the expense of the PC gaming's once healthy growth.

I also don't understand how anyone can deny that there aren't a lot of companies that were PC only that are now exploring Xbox development, some of them exclusively. You're turning a blind eye to what's really going on if you haven't noticed.

PC Developers started looking at consoles before Xbox came on board. You can definitely see a trend of PC developers starting to come on board with ports for games like Half Life (PS2, though originally for DC), Deus Ex (PS2), GTA2(DC), GTA/GTA2(PS),etc. The big sellers for PC games will always exist. The main difference is that these past couple of years haven't seen a truly huge PC game (and they are coming: Doom 3, Half-Life 2, WoW; past examples: Diablo 2, War3, SC, Half-Life) to 'jump-start' the PC market or to infuse big numbers into it.

Is there a high density of PC games on the Xbox? Yes there is. Does it mean that Xbox has brought doom to PC gaming as you want to make it seem? Absolutely not. As I mentioned before, console gaming has been constantly growing and developers need to start looking for opportunities to expand, and the fact that the PC market isn't growing as fast is not Xbox's fault, it's just the way the market is (PC vs. Console, and lack of pivotal games these past couple of years). Couple that with increasing development costs to produce quality titles and you'll encounter your so called 'pc gaming decline' (which I think it's crap, as for me it's just a different market compared to consoles.) Why does Xbox has more PC ports than the other consoles? Well, duh! The architecture's the same, the target audience is the same (as well as the PS2's target audience), and the development tools are quite similar and in many instances (with XSN now) almost the same. So, of course, a publisher will want to cash in on products that would seem logical to bring to both platforms.
 

Dave Long

Banned
You're glossing over the point. It used to be like you said, games were made for the PC, became successful, then were ported to console. That's no longer true. The consoles drive development, meaning games are watered down (as I said in the article) when they come to the PC. They're no longer PC games... they're something else entirely that's somewhere in between.

Don't just take my word for it. Read this month's PC Gamer where Bill Harms (I think it's him...don't have it in front of me) puts an editorial on his preview for Ghost Recon 2 noting that Ubi has completely changed the game into a SOCOM-alike and removed all the identity it had. That's exactly the kind of thing that's hurting PC gaming and pissing off PC gamers.

If the games are not developed for the PC, they don't take advantage of what the PC offers. We were lucky that Bioware spent the time to go back to KOTOR and PCify it for that audience. They're one of the few that apparently still believes in PC gaming. And when games are developed from the ground up for the PC, we get totally different kinds of experiences because of the inherent controls, mouse and keyboard.

You agree with me to a point because what you're saying actually backs up my article. It's become too easy for devs to move to Xbox, and hence they're developing there first. I'm telling you right now that PC gamers don't dig that.
 

IJoel

Member
Dave Long said:
You're glossing over the point. It used to be like you said, games were made for the PC, became successful, then were ported to console. That's no longer true. The consoles drive development, meaning games are watered down (as I said in the article) when they come to the PC. They're no longer PC games... they're something else entirely that's somewhere in between.

Don't just take my word for it. Read this month's PC Gamer where Bill Harms (I think it's him...don't have it in front of me) puts an editorial on his preview for Ghost Recon 2 noting that Ubi has completely changed the game into a SOCOM-alike and removed all the identity it had. That's exactly the kind of thing that's hurting PC gaming and pissing off PC gamers.

If the games are not developed for the PC, they don't take advantage of what the PC offers. We were lucky that Bioware spent the time to go back to KOTOR and PCify it for that audience. They're one of the few that apparently still believes in PC gaming. And when games are developed from the ground up for the PC, we get totally different kinds of experiences because of the inherent controls, mouse and keyboard.

You agree with me to a point because what you're saying actually backs up my article. It's become too easy for devs to move to Xbox, and hence they're developing there first. I'm telling you right now that PC gamers don't dig that.

:/ The fact that you are pointing Xbox as the reason for PC decline, a console that has been released for less than 3 years is just ridiculous. Want to blame a few developers for dumbing down PC games to release on both platforms? Sure, but to single out a console as the reason for the pc market demise is just a really ridiculous argument.

Blame quality, blame economy, blame poor sales. Any of those or a combination of them would make a hell of a lot more sense than Xbox as the reason for the PC gaming industry decline.

Edit: BTW, I disagree with the PC industry being d00m3d. Sure, it's been stagnant for the past couple of years, but I credit the following factors:
1. PC boom was over a couple of years ago. Back then the PC market was flourishing with tons of new people getting into the market and of course, the gaming industry was surely benefiting with this. It will rebound as it's an inevitable cycle.
2. Economy. Say what you will, but PC gaming is expensive. This ties in directly with the point above.
3. Lack of Driving Hardware/Software: The lack of a sales driver, for instance, a new operating system (windows always manages to help drive pc sales.)
4. Lack of a true PC killer apps: The last true killer app (sales wise) would be Warcraft III which was released 2 years ago. This year you shall see a definite spike in sales with the release of Half Life 2 and Doom 3 releases.
 

Dave Long

Banned
Jesus... it's one factor and a major one! Three years is a hell of a long time in this industry. Most places produced at least one to two games in that time frame! In fact, we've watched as Ion Storm Austin went from converting Deus Ex to PS2 from PC to making their entire lineup of games Xbox FIRST and PC SECOND.

There ARE multiple reasons for the PC market's decline. Consoles are absolutely a major factor in this and Xbox especially is a major catalyst for that. Seriously... do you really think you'd see as many PC-centric developers on consoles if Microsoft hadn't entered the market with one of their own?! There's no history to support it. As long as the consoles were Japanese only, the PC game makers were happy to serve PC gamers.

Just take a look at the responses to my article at a place like Slashdot or Evil Avatar... it's been posted there too. There are multiple folks saying "I only play my Xbox anymore. I'm sick of upgrading my PC." Now, I'd like someone to explain to me how those people all had their taste in games change overnight? The answer is their tastes didn't change... Microsoft has a console out there that is basically providing watered down versions of PC games and there's a large segment of PC gaming that left to take advantage of them. They're all playing their first person shooters on Xbox now instead of the PC.

I think it could be successfully argued, and probably supported by Microsoft themselves, that the reason the console game industry "grew" by such a large amount is because they're hooking PC gamers into their console and those people never bought a console before. Hence, huge market growth and only 4% increase in PC game sales over last year.
 

IJoel

Member
As long as the consoles were Japanese only, the PC game makers were happy to serve PC gamers.

This is all this is about.

There is no Deus Ex 2 on PS2 because the PS2 can't handle the technology behind it (well, without a complete overhaul). Issue's the same with Thief.

Some examples:
Ghost Recon games? PC/Xbox/PS2
Splinter Cell games? PC/Xbox/PS2/GCN
Max Payne and Max Payne 2? PC/Xbox/PS2
Rainbow 6 3? PC/Xbox/PS2
Unreal games? PC/PS2/Xbox

The only reason the PS2 doesn't have as many ports is mainly because a) it's not worth it or b) it's not powerful enough. Still, it has a comparable number of PC games with relation to Xbox. As a matter of fact, had the Xbox not being released, you'd see the exact same pattern.

So there goes your Xbox d00m5 PC gaming. You'd have to include both consoles to make the argument as opposed to Japanese vs. Non-Japanese. It's all about sales, where they are, what audience brings them, and what properties match the audience.

In any case, I still don't think there's sufficient base to argue that consoles are the reason for PC gaming's decline. The growth of one vs. the stagnation of the other doesn't really represent an exclusive relationship amongst them nor even, any kind of relationship between them. At least there's not enough data to support this, and I can counter your 'some people at slashdot...' argument with the opposite here. It's worthless.
 

Musashi Wins!

FLAWLESS VICTOLY!
Dave Long said:
this month's PC Gamer where Bill Harms (I think it's him...don't have it in front of me) puts an editorial on his preview for Ghost Recon 2 noting that Ubi has completely changed the game into a SOCOM-alike and removed all the identity it had.

Shit, on an unrelated sidenote, I sure hope this news is true.
 

Mrbob

Member
I think a 4 percent year overyear growth is pretty good considering I don't remember any big name title being released for the PC in 2003. They all got pushed into 2004. I do think these are tougher times for PC gaming but if growth can be found within these tough times is a postiive.

One casualty of Xbox gaming is Planet Moon with their PSP only stance now. Quite sad. But at the same time, I don't understand how they developed Armed and Dangerous for Xbox and PC but said they were banking on PC sales for the title. Which, obviously, didn't come through. I have Armed and Dangerous for the PC and I love the game. However the design of A&D is very console like in nature. Even for the PC. I think PC developers need to shoulder much of the blame themselves. They are developing console style games and then don't understand why a watered down PC port doesn't sell as well. Well that is because you are pissing off your PC fanbase by shoveling them with hand me down seconds of games. You hear all the talk about how games are being codeveloped at one time on XBox and PC and this is BS. They are all being developed with the XBox at the forefront while the PC version is getting handed off as the second hand version. I feel little sympathy for developers who get burned because they try to burn their fanbase (PC consumer) with second hand goods.
 

shuri

Banned
Don't forget the excessif piracy -- face it, the only games that sell are online games that requires a cdkey to play online
 

jedimike

Member
I think PC developers need to shoulder much of the blame themselves. They are developing console style games and then don't understand why a watered down PC port doesn't sell as well. Well that is because you are pissing off your PC fanbase by shoveling them with hand me down seconds of games. You hear all the talk about how games are being codeveloped at one time on XBox and PC and this is BS. They are all being developed with the XBox at the forefront while the PC version is getting handed off as the second hand version. I feel little sympathy for developers who get burned because they try to burn their fanbase (PC consumer) with second hand goods.

What makes these games "watered" down. Armed and Dangerous is very similar in interface to Giants. PC games are just as good as they have always been, but console games are getting better. The gap is smaller.

There are a lot of factors as to why the PC market is stagnant (not declining). "watered" down games is a factor, but only a tiny, tiny factor.

1. Value - I buy a PC game for $50 and 2 months later it's worth $3. I buy a top-of-the-line video card for $200 and 3 months later it's middle-of-the-road. My gaming dollars are best spent elsewhere.

2. Ease of use - I install the game and then have to fuck around with drivers and patches before it's playable. Not to mention, when was the las time a game came on one CD? Make the move to DVD already and get rid of the jewel cases.

3. Consoles - They are powerful, cheap, and easy. It used to be PC's were graphical powerhouses and consoles were just toys... not so anymore. A $2000 PC doesn't hold much of a graphical advantage these days.
 
There's also a great deal of covergence between console and PC architecture these days, as well. PC processors, nVidia/ATi chipsets, the familiar separated CPU/GPU model, et al.

Back in Ye Olde 16-bit days, the architectural difference between a SNES and a VGA-equipped PC was like night and day. It wasn't really feasible to reuse art/music assets, and many PCs didn't have any form of hardware sprite or screen blit support. The development philosophies were completely different.

Rather than blame the Xbox, I'd go back further, to the rise of the PSOne and 3D-equipped PCs. We saw LOADS of PSOne ports as well as co-development on PC and PSOne -- Tomb Raider, Metal Gear Solid, FF7 and 8, Soul Reaver et al. Art, music, and game logic assets were easily reused between the PSOne and the PC, although the PC games usually looked vastly cleaner. The rise of API-driven programming (as opposed to "banging the metal" assembly programming as seen in the 16-bit and earlier days) has put a layer of abstraction between the developer and the hardware, allowing middleware to flourish and encouraging development for the "lowest common denominator" system.

It was inevitable, really. As hardware became sufficiently complex such that assembly programming (which took adventage of a specific hardware configuration's unique specifications) incurred a geometric or exponential development time penalty, abstraction was required. Hence, APIs were developed, and APIs can conveniently cover multiple hardware configurations. If you MUST blame something, blame 3D and increased computational complexity, NOT the Xbox. The only "fault" of the Xbox (and the GC) is that it has a very orthodox hardware configuration (I never thought I'd consider a context where that was a "fault") and supports DirectX (OpenGL for the GC). Even then, it's not like the PS2 is exempt; with middleware like Renderware and the PS2's OpenGL-esque APIs, it's not like porting is a problem, although the PS2 makes for a nasty lowest common denominator point of reference due to its weird-ass architecture.
 
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