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DND is collapsing due to changes in its Open Gaming License

Fair point guys (for you guys replying to me above). I thought WOTC and content creators were in a traditional licensing agreement kind of thing where there's distinct ownership of stuff from a parent company (like Disney owning Iron Man and wanting to do royalty agreements with toy makers with 2 year contracts at a time).
 

It's too late in my opinion. Also, the opening line about preventing hate and discrimination is fucking insulting. We all know why you did it you fucks, don't try and hide behind that bullshit.

Fair point guys (for you guys replying to me above). I thought WOTC and content creators were in a traditional licensing agreement kind of thing where there's distinct ownership of stuff from a parent company (like Disney owning Iron Man and wanting to do royalty agreements with toy makers with 2 year contracts at a time).
You should read the OGL honestly since you're in the business. It's pretty fascinating since an agreement like this probably couldn't exist in any other market.
 
Love the comment in their statement that "you're going to hear people say they won. No they didn't. We won" fucking bizarre
This was a professional PR statement, yet they still couldn't resist the opportunity to throw shade. You can tell exactly how they feel about their customers.

What most people don't know, is that WotC makes up 70% of Hasbro's valuation. Stockholders did not understand this fact until an independent study done on the company highly publicized it. Previous earnings calls never mentioned WoTC ever; after the study, WoTC was all stockholders were interested in.

WoTC went from operating quietly in the corner, to having the spotlight shone onto it and investors salivating for more money and growth from this division. This is the company's focus now, nothing more - money and growth. All this talk about being anti-discrimination is a smokescreen. WotC wants to crush the third parties, drive everyone to their digital platform next year, and monetize the fuck out of it.
 

Xenon

Member

"The next OGL will contain the provisions that allow us to protect and cultivate the inclusive environment we are trying to build..."

Well I'm sold! I totally get why business have embraced this. You can try to screw your customers as much as you want as long as you lead with lines like this. You can then call your critics phobes and ists.
 
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Jinzo Prime

Member
If I'm understanding this correctly, the 25% fee isn't the real problem, it's the ownership clause. Hasbro will lower their fee for big time creators like Critical Role, but now they own all the characters in the show, right?

Not only that, but if you want to make a Youtube video of your game session, but it has a character that doesn't like orcs or demons for some reason, they could get the video removed or demonized for non-inclusivness or whatever.
 

Fbh

Member


"N..no guys you don't get it. It's not us being greedy, this is all to fight against HATE and stop NFT's !!!"

Cary Elwes Laughing GIF
 
Here is Paizo's statement on the OGL (They are one of D&D's biggest direct competitors):


TLDR:

Paizo is implementing their own OGL and is bringing in third-party publishers displaced by WotC's actions. It will be legally irrevocable and not owned by Paizo but by a separate non-profit organization. Paizo is shouldering all the legal costs to create this thing and offering it up to the community.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
Most valuable card game? Check.
Most valuable TTRPG? Check.

WotC board meeting:

sigourney weaver michael GIF
Basically.


Yeah those people that give you money and love your products so much they give you free advertising via decades of word of mouth? Fuck'em. Milk em dry.

Lol......how much time do you have? I'll give you their crown jewel though:


I am still dumbstruck by sheer gall they had to even SUGGEST this let alone actually follow through with it.

It's not jumping the shark it's jumping the whole ocean.
 
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Paddy,

I watched the video and it's insane they are doing this. Even though the collectibles industry is a shady industry that preys on random loot packs and enticing players with rares so they spend more, it' a shame these kind of collectibles do this. But when money is out there, they'll do it. At $1000 per pack paid direct to them, hey all they got to do is sell 10,000 sets and thats $10 million sales right there. Who knows how many sets will be made. Really comes down to how many hardcore MTG fans and scalpers there are with a wad of cash burning a hole in their pocket.

From my past experience dabbling with licensed product and collectibles, you typically got two kinds of collectibles kinds of businesses. One is the random pack kind of thing like baseball, MTG, Pokemon cards. The other is what I worked in which was toys, seasonal products, Christmas tree ornament sets etc.... My coworkers and I were in charge of our own product lines and order product for the year or season. Some things were everyday products that sell for years all year round. Some were obviously only for special occasions. Our goal was to sell as much as possible too, but not at this hide and seek overpriced crap tactic.

Like anything you see in stores with your own eyes, it's there to buy. We order in as much as possible without ordering too much (over inventory) and hope it all sells. There were no such thing as rares or trying to rip off customers who enjoy collecting stuff. If one of my sets had 40 products in it, as long as the store orders in all 40 that person can buy it all in one shot. It's up to them. I got the product at the warehouse, up to the store manager to order it. Products were reasonably priced and the products were priced simply by cost. The higher it costs, the more it sells for. The lower it cost, the lower the price. And like most things in life, the more it costs the fewer bought. So inventory was based on that, not artificially done by a marketing manager purposely gutting the availability. There were no games like let's purposely make product #36 super rare that costs $200 and only some stores get it.

Even though I dont buy collectibles stuff (aside from 1-2 years as a kid buying Fleer baseball stickers for a book), it's really a shame. When I look back at the stuff I did with coworkers, I have no idea how many people are true collectors, but considering the product was widely available at various stores, a hardcore customer could surely buy them all up if they really wanted to. Its not like any collection had 500 or 1000 pieces. Although to be fair, some of our stuff was only available during seasonal periods and you may never see it again next year. So I guess some people would be pressured that way to buy up if they wanted all 50 pieces. But there was no random packs or gimped supply.

With companies like MTG, they got a key advantage. They control the franchise. For me, our licensed gear would have 1-3 year deals. We cant afford to overprice something because if it doesn't sell we are stuck with it. And if that happens, the licensor will be pissed its not selling and not renew. For WOTC, they can afford to take as long as they want setting whatever crazy price they feel like.
 

LordCBH

Member
As a long time fan of MTG I don't understand why WOTC seems determined to kill both of it's golden gooses.

They basically spent the last year waging war against their own fans.

To be fair, it shouldn’t surprise anyone considering Hasbro owns them. Hasbros MO is to absolutely squeeze every single thing they own dry.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
To be fair, it shouldn’t surprise anyone considering Hasbro owns them. Hasbros MO is to absolutely squeeze every single thing they own dry.
I get that, but Wizards makes up a SIZEABLE portion of their revenue. Why strangle your Golden Goose now for a few eggs immediately instead of just building it up over time and end up with all the eggs? You don't kill your entire business for this year's profit. Even a high school kid who has read half of a book on business can tell you that's not what you do. They are systematically destroying the goodwill that has built up for decades between Magic and D&D for what appears to be pure "we can't just make a lot of money we need to make ALL OF THE MONEY" stupidity that routinely kills IPs and businesses the world over.


And it's not like they are Apple or Microsoft where there is next to no alternative. There are DOZENS of D&D copies out there for people to turn to. Same goes for Magic and card games. They are acting like this is some full proof plan where the ONLY outcome is "hurr durr profit line go up" when in reality all they are doing is driving their customers away and they will end up with next to nothing instead of just settling on the already HUGE amount of money that they were making.


It makes no sense no matter which angle I look at it. Even from a business standpoint.
 
I would have prefered Heritage / Ancester / Kindred or something more fantastical than "species"
Even that stupid but Pathfinder changed 'race' to 'ancestry' themselves.

That still doesn't make any sense because elves and halflings and dwarves are not just an ancestry but an entire race or I guess you could call it species as well.

We all know why they're doing it. It's the satisfy the woke mob.
 
I get that, but Wizards makes up a SIZEABLE portion of their revenue. Why strangle your Golden Goose now for a few eggs immediately instead of just building it up over time and end up with all the eggs? You don't kill your entire business for this year's profit. Even a high school kid who has read half of a book on business can tell you that's not what you do. They are systematically destroying the goodwill that has built up for decades between Magic and D&D for what appears to be pure "we can't just make a lot of money we need to make ALL OF THE MONEY" stupidity that routinely kills IPs and businesses the world over.


And it's not like they are Apple or Microsoft where there is next to no alternative. There are DOZENS of D&D copies out there for people to turn to. Same goes for Magic and card games. They are acting like this is some full proof plan where the ONLY outcome is "hurr durr profit line go up" when in reality all they are doing is driving their customers away and they will end up with next to nothing instead of just settling on the already HUGE amount of money that they were making.


It makes no sense no matter which angle I look at it. Even from a business standpoint.
What's funny too is that the toys/collectible industry is very different than other ones. Unless things changed a lot the past 15 years, this kind of industry is very lenient to the supplier in that once they ship a store product, they arent sending it back if it doesnt sell, wont get clear out funds to mark the down 50%, or get an RA to send back product for credit (RA means Return Authorization). The store is stuck with it. Other kinds of industries are lenient that the manufacturer will fund it down and even do an RA. With toys/collectibles, the supplier likely will dust off their hands as "it's your problem now"

So with iron fisted policies against stores they already have, you'd think they'd ease up on the consumer end because the customer ultimately pulls the product through the chain with their demand for product. And if the demand is good, stores will suck it up and live with draconian shipment policies. If the customer gets pissed off enough, the demand dries up. And then stores will definitely say fuck it and wont carry it.
 
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01011001

Member
how hard would it be to just copy/paste most of D&D's rules and make a new game with a different name and some renamed monsters?

I mean D&D is literally just written down game rules and nothing more if you break it down to the core... ideally Wizards would have ZERO leverage here
 

NecrosaroIII

Ask me about my terrible takes on Star Trek characters
how hard would it be to just copy/paste most of D&D's rules and make a new game with a different name and some renamed monsters?

I mean D&D is literally just written down game rules and nothing more if you break it down to the core... ideally Wizards would have ZERO leverage here
Pretty easy. Back in the early 2000s. There were a ton of games that did just that. That's what the OGL was for.
 
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Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
What's funny too is that the toys/collectible industry is very different than other ones. Unless things changed a lot the past 15 years, this kind of industry is very lenient to the supplier in that once they ship a store product, they arent sending it back if it doesnt sell, wont get clear out funds to mark the down 50%, or get an RA to send back product for credit (RA means Return Authorization). The store is stuck with it. Other kinds of industries are lenient that the manufacturer will fund it down and even do an RA. With toys/collectibles, the supplier likely will dust off their hands as "it's your problem now"

So with iron fisted policies against stores they already have, you'd think they'd ease up on the consumer end because the customer ultimately pulls the product through the chain with their demand for product. And if the demand is good, stores will suck it up and live with draconian shipment policies. If the customer gets pissed off enough, the demand dries up. And then stores will definitely say fuck it and wont carry it.
That's already happening. I won't go into detail because this thread isn't about MTG, but there have already been distributers that have completely dropped MTG from their line ups due to this past year and it's numerous failings. Same goes for local game stores because Wizards has been cozying up to daddy Amazon at rates that a small time LGS just can't match.


WOTC is currently in the middle of strangling the golden goose and people are publicly begging them to stop. There answer was literally "this product is not for you" then if you feel that way.
 

Lasha

Member
Just curious, what did they do against Magic the Gathering? I dont play that game.

Too many sets and additional issues that led to fatigue. Competitive players were alienated by changes to "professional" play which had diversity picks. An overall decline in the quality of art and cardstock. Hamfisted attempts at diversity like hiring a black person to draw a black planeswalker because WotC didn't know how to properly draw black people. A shift in the plot to be more like the avengers. There are more niggles but they add up. Nearly everybody who plays is pissed at the game for some reason.
 

theclaw135

Member
The whole idea is ridiculous to me. How can game RULES need a license?

If compatible games are ripping artwork and character designs from D&D, that's a different story.
 

NecrosaroIII

Ask me about my terrible takes on Star Trek characters
That's already happening. I won't go into detail because this thread isn't about MTG, but there have already been distributers that have completely dropped MTG from their line ups due to this past year and it's numerous failings. Same goes for local game stores because Wizards has been cozying up to daddy Amazon at rates that a small time LGS just can't match.


WOTC is currently in the middle of strangling the golden goose and people are publicly begging them to stop. There answer was literally "this product is not for you" then if you feel that way.
You see this with DND too. Why should I buy a book at a local shop for 50$, when I can buy from Amazon for 23.00
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
You see this with DND too. Why should I buy a book at a local shop for 50$, when I can buy from Amazon for 23.00
Exactly. Also the new president of Wizards Cynthia Williams? She used to work for Amazon.


Funny that. 🤔
 

jason10mm

Member
You see this with DND too. Why should I buy a book at a local shop for 50$, when I can buy from Amazon for 23.00
I thought the alternate cover only being available at FLGS was a good compromise between online retailers and supporting stores.

I noped out of DnD around the Icewind Dale supplement because the direction the game was going just wasn't for me. I love DnD to my core but the game is moving past me. I have options though. But my 14 yo neice and her friends are playing 5e Yawning Portal as I type so there is life left in the system.
 
The whole idea is ridiculous to me. How can game RULES need a license?
They don't. You can't copyright game mechanics and rules. That's why WotC's actions are so unbelievably idiotic.

The OGL benefitted D&D first and foremost. It grew their goddamn game by encouraging people to stick with their rules and not create competing rules. It provided a safe avenue for creators to simply create, without having to worry about understanding IP legalities. It united the TTRPG market under a single banner - theirs.

D&D owes its market dominance to the OGL - period. Now WotC wants to cut off the community because they think they don't need them anymore. We'll see I guess.
 

Rest

All these years later I still chuckle at what a fucking moron that guy is.
I thought Dungeons and Dragons was a game you played with pencils and household paper, what does it mean to subscribe to DnD?
 

NecrosaroIII

Ask me about my terrible takes on Star Trek characters
I thought Dungeons and Dragons was a game you played with pencils and household paper, what does it mean to subscribe to DnD?
Wizards owns a digital toolset called DND Beyond. It's basically digital reference materials and character sheets
 
I thought Dungeons and Dragons was a game you played with pencils and household paper, what does it mean to subscribe to DnD?
A huge portion of D&D's revenue comes from their digital platform subscription. It exploded during COVID because people it allowed people to play remotely. My friends and I ran our campaign through the platform and Zoom meeting calls. Cancelling your subscription hits them directly in the pocketbook, immediately. The site went down this week after mass cancellations......when it came back up, they had moved the cancel subscription link from its normal spot. Clearly it's working.

Edit: Also, I don't think this has been mentioned but the art they released their statement with is from this MTG card:

Image.ashx


It's a fucking counterspell. LOL they are such fucking dickheads.
 
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LordCBH

Member
Wizards owns a digital toolset called DND Beyond. It's basically digital reference materials and character sheets

At first I was excited when they bought them. The thought of potentially buying the physical book and getting a web code with it was super fucking sick since my group is scattered across the country. But then the finger on the monkeys paw curled
 
So with what some of you guys are saying above that things like monsters and dice rule mechanics cant be protected etc... then what is WOTC new agreement details really trying to harness?

What things can truly be protected?

Does it really come down to WOTC assuming the D&D brand name is so powerful and needed by content creators to sell product that they will bend just to use the name? Kind of like EA paying FIFA shit loads of money for the FIFA name and World Cup when everything else has nothing to do with them?

Just trying to see what WOTC is protecting that is truly theirs and what isnt.
 

Wildebeest

Member
So with what some of you guys are saying above that things like monsters and dice rule mechanics cant be protected etc... then what is WOTC new agreement details really trying to harness?

What things can truly be protected?

Does it really come down to WOTC assuming the D&D brand name is so powerful and needed by content creators to sell product that they will bend just to use the name? Kind of like EA paying FIFA shit loads of money for the FIFA name and World Cup when everything else has nothing to do with them?

Just trying to see what WOTC is protecting that is truly theirs and what isnt.
The things that can be truly protected, like trademarked terms and things they consider to be brand distinctive characters and monsters in DnD are already not allowed in the OGL. If anything, the OGL gives third parties a safe list of things which they will not protect with lawyers if the OGL is included. It is a mistake to think the OGL lets people use the Forgotten Realms/Drizzt, terms like "Dungeon Master", or monsters like beholders. There is no "Disney letting anyone make Mickey Mouse cartoons" aspect to it.
 
I dont even play D&D except for dabbling with it as a kid in the 80s and none of us really knew how to play it, nor had the patience for one person to be the DM. The game just isn't meant for a group of people aged 8-18 even if the DM is the older kid.

But I find this whole topic so interesting I'm watching YT videos as the rotate one after another based on video clips you guys post above.

Probably because I played it back then (I remember the content we had like the red and blue box, DM guide and MM). We even had the Companions and Masters sets which made no sense, but we bought it because it was cool boxart. Companions set had coolest boxart ever (it was an aqua coloured box). I think we all just had more fun reading all the content and looking at the pictures than actually playing the game. Also, I like business issues so this whole wheeling an dealing and contract stuff is really interesting to me.
 
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Tieno

Member
I dont even play D&D except for dabbling with it as a kid in the 80s and none of us really knew how to play it, nor had the patience for one person to be the DM. The game just isn't meant for a group of people aged 8-18 even if the DM is the older kid.

But I find this whole topic so interesting I'm watching YT videos as the rotate one after another based on video clips you guys post above.

Probably because I played it back then (I remember the content we had like the red and blue box, DM guide and MM). We even had the Companions and Masters sets which made no sense, but we bought it because it was cool boxart. Companions set had coolest boxart ever (it was an aqua coloured box). I think we all just had more fun reading all the content and looking at the pictures than actually playing the game. Also, I like business issues so this whole wheeling an dealing and contract stuff is really interesting to me.
In the same boat here. Played dnd once a few years ago, I liked it. But that was it.
This news story has so many layers and angles, it’s fascinating.

The best video I’ve seen so far is this one, with one of the original creators of the license.
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion

They are fucking high on power. If they even attempt this it would see a mass exodus. They are not in a dominant enough position to even dream of this let alone carry it out.



This is the move of a company ran by someone who has no idea about the product and has no connectivity to the community.
 

Kimahri

Banned
If they remove homebrew from base version I'll stop using it altogether.

I'm not paying monthly to get what? Dice and backgrounds?

We already own the books we need individually, so I never saw a point in paying monthly.

I guess that's what annoys the execs. I'm not paying monthly, so they wanna force me to. Yeah, sure. Good luck with that.

But 30 pm? What the fuck are they smoking?
 

Nobody_Important

“Aww, it’s so...average,” she said to him in a cold brick of passion
I'm already seeing alternatives like the "GloomHaven" brand being recommended for people looking for something different and as someone who has played it I 100% recommend it.


It is not a 1 to 1 copy, but it scratches the same itch in a way that I never expected. It is not the infite adventures that DnD offers, but it's worth the time you spend to play it.


Check out the Tabletop Simulator version of the game if you wanna play it over long distances.
 
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SJRB

Member
30 bucks per month per player, lol. Good luck with that, you dumb fucks.

Wizzards of the Coast when thinking about their userbase:

iu
 

jason10mm

Member
How can they POSSIBLY even remotely consider banning homebrew? Hasn't "play DnD YOUR WAY" been like their bedrock statement for years to justify why they are stripping away all the individuality and uniqueness for each class and race?
 
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