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[serversurfer]

Nope, because you'll be a part of that metric even if all you do is use your windows phone to watch shows on netflix during your commute to work. Just to cite one of many such examples.

You need to log in to Live to access Netflix even on the phone? That's somewhat surprising. PS3 and PS4 try to get you to log into PSN first — though last I checked, they eventually give up if you can't/don't — and I'm not surprised it's required on Bone, but I'm pretty sure I don't need to log in to anything special to access it on my iPhone.

Anyway, if they really do require it, perhaps the XBox brand is meant to encompass all entertainment, rather than just gaming? That seems like a bit of a stretch for them though, yes. What all is gated by Live now? Do you actually have a Lumia? =/

 

[etta]

They use MAU because it's a metric that's relevant to one of their primary business interests; online services. It's basically the equivalent of a retailer reporting on their foot traffic. No, it doesn't tell you how much money they're making — there are other numbers for that — but it does give you a good idea of how much opportunity they have for monetization, just like foot traffic in retail.

I think stuff like Office is reported as pure revenue because volume pricing makes unit sales not especially relevant. Including them kinda would be puffery, because it's very easy for them to give you 13% more licenses "just because we like you."


Well, perhaps I am. I'd be kinda surprised if anyone other than the lawyers and accounts had a say in what goes in to the financials. Do you have anything to indicate PR filters this stuff?


Well, if Bone was trouncing PS4, they may not be getting out of the console business, but whatever the cause(s), that's what their financial reports tell us they're doing. The console business didn't survive the refocus. Maybe it would've if it was doing better, or maybe it was doomed the moment Nadella took the helm, but either way, they're done with it now.

Again, Lumia seems to be getting an even worse trouncing than Bone, so I'm not sure why you're so convinced the score determines whether or not something gets reported.


It's not useless, but yes, it's of fairly limited use on its own. You need to combine it with ARPPU and that sort of thing to get a full picture of the health of the business.

But I'd argue that you're the one who thinks of "XBox" as a piece of hardware, and MS have made it quite clear that the hardware is no longer relevant at all. XBox Live is the portion of the XBox business that survived the refocus. Well, that and the game development. But when they talk about the health of XBox now, they're not referring to consoles in any way, just the network service itself, and the games they're making. Consoles are only mentioned in reference to the effect they have on revenue, and then only because you need to report all significant changes in revenue, whatever the source.

Well said, though, it's probably going to be ignored.

 

[e-gamer]

Would that really affect game reporting every month? Even in months where xbox were the only console maker releasing exclusives?

Well, moneyhat also Works with media...

 

[Raist]

You need to log in to Live to access Netflix even on the phone? That's somewhat surprising. PS3 and PS4 try to get you to log into PSN first — though last I checked, they eventually give up if you can't/don't — and I'm not surprised it's required on Bone, but I'm pretty sure I don't need to log in to anything special to access it on my iPhone.

Anyway, if they really do require it, perhaps the XBox brand is meant to encompass all entertainment, rather than just gaming? That seems like a bit of a stretch for them though, yes. What all is gated by Live now? Do you actually have a Lumia? =/

That's the whole point of windows 10. Pretty much complete XBL integration. Hence the massive jump in MAU this quarter - they certainly haven't sold 12M+ XB1.

Well said, though, it's probably going to be ignored.

Are you actually reading the thread?

 

[CosmicQueso]

Fair enough. I could've been less confrontational.

Well, it would have been fine if you were just discussing the use of hashtags in a post.

 

[etta]

Are you actually reading the thread?

Yes?
People can say MAU is useless and what not, but surfer explained it well.
Hell, a huge reason Windows 10 was free was because they wanted to get people hooked on their services. The App Store, Movies/Music Store, Office services, Azure services (though this one is probably not as big for general consumers), that's where the big money comes from and that's where MAU comes in.

 

[SPDIF]

Nope, because you'll be a part of that metric even if all you do is use your windows phone to watch shows on netflix during your commute to work. Just to cite one of many such examples.

You don't have to sign into XBL to use Netflix on Windows Phone, or Windows 10 for that matter. You need an MS account to download the app, but you don't have to actually be signed into XBL. So I don't think your example would have any effect on MAU numbers.

That's the whole point of windows 10. Pretty much complete XBL integration. Hence the massive jump in MAU this quarter - they certainly haven't sold 12M+ XB1.

With games that want to support that, yes. Random apps like Netflix aren't going to do that.

 

[Raist]

You don't have to sign into XBL to use Netflix on Windows Phone, or Windows 10 for that matter. You need an MS account to download the app, but you don't have to actually be signed into XBL. So I don't think your example would have any effect on MAU numbers.



With games that want to support that, yes. Random apps like Netflix aren't going to do that.

I thought the whole Live anywhere + W10 etc was just that. My bad then.

 

[jayu26]

Yes?
People can say MAU is useless and what not, but surfer explained it well.
Hell, a huge reason Windows 10 was free was because they wanted to get people hooked on their services. The App Store, Movies/Music Store, Office services, Azure services (though this one is probably not as big for general consumers), that's where the big money comes from and that's where MAU comes in.

When we say it's useless we mean it's useless at telling us the actual sales or even health of Xbox One the console. And if following is true...

You need to log in to Live to access Netflix even on the phone? That's somewhat surprising. PS3 and PS4 try to get you to log into PSN first — though last I checked, they eventually give up if you can't/don't — and I'm not surprised it's required on Bone, but I'm pretty sure I don't need to log in to anything special to access it on my iPhone.

Anyway, if they really do require it, perhaps the XBox brand is meant to encompass all entertainment, rather than just gaming? That seems like a bit of a stretch for them though, yes. What all is gated by Live now? Do you actually have a Lumia? =/

Then you can't really blame people on a gaming enthusiast forum, who like to study and understand the business side of gaming, for getting frustrated due to lack of clarity presented by MS with regrades to its gaming business.

Just because we understand that MAU represents their mission statement better does not mean that we cannot muse about it.

 

[etta]

When we say it's useless we mean it's useless at telling us the actual sales or even health of Xbox One the console. And if following is true...


Then you can't really blame people on a gaming enthusiast forum, who like to study and understand the business side of gaming, for getting frustrated due to lack of clarity presented by MS with regrades to its gaming business.

Just because we understand that MAU represents their mission statement better does not mean that we cannot muse about it.

I'm not talking about those who make fun of it, I think some people get creative with the topic and provide some good entertainment.

 

[RexNovis]

Well, it would have been fine if you were just discussing the use of hashtags in a post.

Hah! True. It is a personal pet peeve.

Yes?
People can say MAU is useless and what not, but surfer explained it well.
Hell, a huge reason Windows 10 was free was because they wanted to get people hooked on their services. The App Store, Movies/Music Store, Office services, Azure services (though this one is probably not as big for general consumers), that's where the big money comes from and that's where MAU comes in.

What ServerSurfer said was that MAU is a good indicator for the shift in strategy the company has made in regards to Xbox. Mainly he argues that MAU shows they are more interested in 'Xbox' as a hardware agnostic content delivery platform.

They use MAU because it's a metric that's relevant to one of their primary business interests; online services. It's basically the equivalent of a retailer reporting on their foot traffic.

Well, if Bone was trouncing PS4, they may not be getting out of the console business, but whatever the cause(s), that's what their financial reports tell us they're doing. The console business didn't survive the refocus. Maybe it would've if it was doing better, or maybe it was doomed the moment Nadella took the helm, but either way, they're done with it now.

But I'd argue that you're the one who thinks of "XBox" as a piece of hardware, and MS have made it quite clear that the hardware is no longer relevant at all. XBox Live is the portion of the XBox business that survived the refocus. Well, that and the game development. But when they talk about the health of XBox now, they're not referring to consoles in any way, just the network service itself, and the games they're making. Consoles are only mentioned in reference to the effect they have on revenue, and then only because you need to report all significant changes in revenue, whatever the source.

So while he does say that there is a reason for their use of MAU as a metric it is not the reason you seem to think he is implying. He is saying it is used because their business strategy has shifted entirely away form Hardware.

Furthermore, he also went on to talk about how it is worthless as an indication of actual financial growth because it neglects to measure monetary engagement on a per customer basis.

it's of fairly limited use on its own. You need to combine it with ARPPU and that sort of thing to get a full picture of the health of the business.

Thinking about this a bit more, MAU and foot traffic are kind of akin to console unit sales; they don't really tell you about the business' health so much as its potential. Since consoles are typically sold at cost or even at a loss, selling 1M or 10M of them doesn't really say anything about how successful your business is, because that all comes later. Like MAU and foot traffic, console sales just show the general interest in your business, and the potential for monetization.

So as SS explained, when it comes to the topics we are mostly concerned with here (mainly sell through and profits) MAU is a worthless metric. That said they do differentiate Xbox Live MAU from general windows user MAU as he goes on to point out but even then we have no ARPU information for these users so the information is basically useless in determining potential revenue.

 

[serversurfer]

I thought the whole Live anywhere + W10 etc was just that. My bad then.

Yeah, it's a little more focused than you think, but like I said, it's not super informative on its own. For example, I rejoined the Live MAU last month when I wanted to look at the manual for the Bone. (Researching an argument.)

What ServerSurfer said was that MAU is a good indicator for the shift in strategy the company has made in regards to Xbox. Mainly he argues that MAU shows they are more interested in 'Xbox' as a hardware agnostic content delivery platform.

So while he does say that there is a reason for their use of MAU as a metric it is not the reason you seem to think he is implying. He is saying it is used because their business strategy has shifted entirely away form Hardware.

Correct. Edit: They could report both, but they don't.

Furthermore, he also went on to talk about how it is worthless as an indication of actual financial growth because it neglects to measure monetary engagement on a per customer basis.

So as SS explained, when it comes to the topics we are mostly concerned with here (mainly sell through and profits) MAU is a worthless metric. That said they do differentiate Xbox Live MAU from general windows user MAU as he goes on to point out but even then we have no ARPU information for these users so the information is basically useless in determining potential revenue.

Actually, Ballmer has criticized them quite loudly for a lack of relevant metrics in their financials. He was referring specifically to their cloud stuff, but yeah, seems like he'd like to know a little more about what's actually going on with his holdings. I guess they provide enough detail to satisfy the SEC though. /shrug

 

[ethomaz]

Actually, Ballmer has criticized them quite loudly for a lack of relevant metrics in their financials. He was referring specifically to their cloud stuff, but yeah, seems like he'd like to know a little more about what's actually going on with his holdings. I guess they provide enough detail to satisfy the SEC though. /shrug

I guess most investors are not happy with how MS is hiding info from them (not only game related but for others parts too).
If the numbers of insatisfaction increase MS will need to change the metrics again.

And I agree with the ex-CEO MS needs to put Android on Lumia... I don't like Android phones but it is way better than actual WP phones.

 

[Kinan]

Cheers for these! What's your sourcing in your sales figures? It looks about the same for the data I have with a little variance here and there. Just curious where you got your numbers from and if I need to adjust mine.

It's crazy how close PS4 has maintained the Shipped:Sell through gap since release. Albeit I do think this past holiday season saw the biggest gap this far (~1.8 million). Still impressive.

The range shading in your XB1 line is a bit tricky to distinguish thanks to it being such a bright color. Any chance you could swap to a darker shade of some kind? Otherwise it's pretty much spot on. Really cool seeing how sales stack up to other gens. Do you mind if we repost/share these in other threads? If not I'll be bookmarking them for later reference.

Sorry for late response, missed your post somehow. :/ I try to use only financial reports numbers if possible. If not (the case for many old numbers), I search internet for articles that referenced financial reports numbers at that time.

I see what you mean with range shading, I'll make it darker in a next iteration of the graph. Of course, feel free to repost/share them as you see fit.