Support NeoGAF

[Zhengi]

Wow, the game looks awesome. This makes me wish I had a PSP now.

 

[Teknoman]

Man 3 RPGs in one month... I guess Ys I+II isnt that long of a game, but still.

 

[speedpop]

I honestly wouldn't give a shit what anyone said about the game in reviews or impressions, ridiculous fanatic or otherwise. The core game has always been enjoyable through 2 incarnations, and even if there was a major diversion from the "original" then luckily for them those are still available!

 

[Quixzlizx]

In the absence of a scoring system that penalizes the use of difficulty reducing features, there is no way to differentiate between a player who used them and who didn't as defined by the game rules. Again, if you have a problem with that...

1. The game does measure the amount of times you use CHARIOT

2. I think the point is you're the only person who has a problem with it.

 

[Shouta]

You use the loaded, opionated word "exploit" several times. That word has no place in game analysis. There is no "exploiting" or "cheapness" or "abuse" - those are imaginary, irrelevant constructs players use to morally regulate what they see as unfair behavior. If a move is legal by the games rules, it is valid. Don't like it? Take it up with the people who created the game. Game analysis has nothing to do with fairness or other opinions. It has to do with measurable skills, probabilistic luck, and optimal strategies.

If you want to see exploit as a loaded word sure but I'm using it as under the "make the best use of" definition. I did say short of bugs. You're right in that analysis has nothing to do with fairness and that's why I said your premise is flawed. So, tell me why is it not flawed? Why is making use of everything short of bugs to make the game easier a better gauge of difficulty than working from the baseline before adding in optional systems and elements that may not be intended to be used in that manner?

Games are played to win as defined by the games rules. They're skewed towards an optimal playthrough of the game in order for developers to properly balance the difficulty. If it's balanced when played optimally, it's balanced when a less skilled player approaches it. Thus it's the most efficient and accurate way to analyze and balance a game. Most importantly, if you balance a game with the mindset that it won't be exploited or without regard to optimal playthroughs, it's going to end up an imbalanced mess like most RPGs out there. Being in the "RPG genre" does not garner it a magical free pass.

You already got called out for declaring the developers intentions without proof, and now you're doing it again. Regardless of intentions, rules can be analyzed, intents can't. It doesn't matter what the intentions are, it matters what the game rules are.

You mean that interview on Andriasang? You'd better try again.

First off, that article was paraphased without the actual words of the developers. Second, Minagawa says that the game would be difficult to keep as is. That in no way directly that the game's baseline difficulty will be changed. It implies that there will be a change. That ended up coming up in the CHARIOT system again an optional system that players can or don't have to use. I'm not making any guess on intent at all, in fact. You're the one gleaming the intent of Minagawa and Matsuno from an entirely vague article.

The first, most important rule of analyzing any game is that you may not arbitrarily ignore parts of the game or game rules for any reason. Games are analyzed by utilizing every legal or legitimate game rule available to the player to reach the stated goals, usually reaching the end of the game and/or getting a high score. Games are not analyzed by restricting yourself or adding meta-rules onto the game that alter how it is played, usually in the form of trying to patch up imbalanced parts of the game that reduce the amount of skill needed to score or complete it. In the absence of a scoring system that penalizes the use of difficulty reducing features, there is no way to differentiate between a player who used them and who didn't as defined by the game rules. Again, if you have a problem with that, stop apologizing for developers who won't or can't balance their games to ensure their challenges aren't easily mitigated.

Do you always pull out that line from your article?

Anyway, your assuming that my basis for analysis alters the way a player approaches the game. It does not. My argument for using the baseline as measure of difficulty does not include restrictions or additional meta-rules, simply that an optional system or element not intended to be used that not be used in the analysis. You know what's the playstyle difference between a player that uses a quicksave reload and one that doesn't? There isn't any. Things like quicksave reloads and optional systems like CHARIOT do not change the way you play but works as a fail-safe in instances where you make a mistake. As you say, games are not analyzed by adding things into the analysis that arbitrarily reduce the skill needed to complete it. However, not taking into account a fail-safe system or optional choice in the analysis is not an arbitrary rule because it does not reduce the skill needed to complete the game as it works as a fail-safe device.

Someone with an ogre battle avatar making trollish insults and calling me a fanboy. The hypocricy/irony doesn't get much thicker.

I didn't call you a fanboy and I'm actually responding to your posts. The ball is in your count.

Also, for someone that loves these types of games, it's so sad that you got the origin of my avatar all wrong.

 

[Yaweee]

I didn't call you a fanboy and I'm actually responding to your posts. The ball is in your count.

Also, for someone that loves these types of games, it's so sad that you got the origin of my avatar all wrong.

I think TO needs more mecha and explosions.

 

[Shouta]

I think TO needs more mecha and explosions.

Yes, that would make the game only more awesome than it already is.

 

[Joule]

Also, for someone that loves these types of games, it's so sad that you got the origin of my avatar all wrong.

Think he was referring to Hikash Winzalf's post.

Shouta let me pop you a question. With the various changes in this remake and the addition troops each side is allotted, has the enemy positioning side of things drastically changed from the original? Also how soon does the 12 vs 18 come into play?

 

[Shouta]

Think he was referring to Hikash Winzalf's post.

Oh, that would make a little more sense. Though, the first thing that hit my mind was the Witcher for some reason. Looking forward to that game for sure!

Shouta let me pop you a question. With the various changes in this remake and the addition troops each side is allotted, has the enemy positioning side of things drastically changed from the original? Also how soon does the 12 vs 18 come into play?

I think they've changed some enemy positions compared to the original if you compare battle to battle but I haven't loaded up the original since playing the remake so I don't really know. I don't remember exactly when the larger battles start but as early as Ch 2 I think.

Anyway, off to Tokyo for me!

 

[mjemirzian]

That wasn't directed at you Shouta.

I'll probably enjoy this game even if it's not particularly difficult. I'll try playing it without quicksaves or autosaves, maybe some other stuff.

 

[aceface]

It's like a game that has an easy mode. Does the fact that a game has an easy mode mean it's a lesser game? Do you have to play in easy mode? Should I play, say, Persona 3 in easy mode because I have to use every exploit available in a game in order to reach the stated goal (beating the game)? Hell no I don't.

Chariot is easy mode. No need to use it.

 

[PataHikari]

And you know what?

The ability to undo mistakes does not in any way reduce difficulty.

What it does do is reduce the penalty for failure. You still made an error, the game still outsmarted you. But rather then make it so that if you want to remove that failure you restart the battle, you merely restart that turn.

 

[Kalnos]

What it does do is reduce the penalty for failure. You still made an error, the game still outsmarted you. But rather then make it so that if you want to remove that failure you restart the battle, you merely restart that turn.

Which... in turn reduces difficulty because it ultimately deems all of your choices less important?

I don't know, if that's a feature, it's one I will never use. That's near super-guide levels.

 

[Yaweee]

And you know what?

The ability to undo mistakes does not in any way reduce difficulty.

What it does do is reduce the penalty for failure. You still made an error, the game still outsmarted you. But rather then make it so that if you want to remove that failure you restart the battle, you merely restart that turn.

I completely agree with you.

Pissing away shitloads of time when you screw up isn't quite the same thing as difficulty. I'd consider a game like Demon's Souls or Super Meat Boy be to far more difficult than the SRPGs being brought up here, and in those guys dying rarely means for than a few minutes of lost effort, if that.

EDIT: And food for thought, for those that disagree: Do long unskippable cutscenes before boss fights, long battle animations, or the lack of Continue or Retry options upon losing increase the difficulty of games?

 

[Pappasman]

If you don't want to rewind then don't do it. I don't see what the problem is.

 

[hiro4]

Which... in turn reduces difficulty because it ultimately deems all of your choices less important?

I don't know, if that's a feature, it's one I will never use. That's near super-guide levels.

No.
It doesn't change anything to the settings of the difficulty.

What it does change is the challenge of the game.

Two totally different things.

 

[Chemo]

If you don't want to rewind then don't do it. I don't see what the problem is.

There is no problem. But some people have so much fun complaining about absolutely fucking nothing.

 

[kevm3]

I doubt I will personally use the rewind feature, and with that said, I don't see why there is complaining about it. It's an option. It doesn't change the challenge anyone personally because you have the choice of not using it.

 

[DiscoJer]

Unless a game erases the save games immediately after you load it, then any "challenge" or "difficulty" is somewhat artificial anyway, as you can always reload a save game when you screw up (as is a pretty common practice).

Game designers have realized that people do this. So they made it so you don't have to.

 

[Augemitbutter]

Unless a game erases the save games immediately after you load it, then any "challenge" or "difficulty" is somewhat artificial anyway, as you can always reload a save game when you screw up (as is a pretty common practice).

this is true and i don't like how there is no consequence to one's actions anymore because of that. systems like these teach sloppy playstyles and newcomers will have it hard to appreciate the challenge of a good game. few people have the control to forego convenient features, let's be real.

 

[Dresden]

this is true and i don't like how there is no consequence to one's actions anymore because of that. systems like these teach sloppy playstyles and newcomers will have it hard to appreciate the challenge of a good game. few people have the control to forego convenient features, let's be real.

I stopped giving a fuck about what other players do in single player games.

Felt good man.

 

[Augemitbutter]

and i tried to see things from all perspectives. felt good as well.

 

[sega4ever]

so glad to read the names of the dlc quests, i didn't like the ending some of our heroes met.

 

[54-46!]

Which firmware will this game require?

 

[Minsc]

Which firmware will this game require?

Given it's not out, it'd be hard to know I think! Logical choices would be the same firmware as Square's other recent games, like PE: 3rd Birthday or KH: BbS, or possibly something even newer. I'm sure whatever it requires will ship on the disc, so you'll have no problems obtaining it.

 

[Hikash Winzalf]

Originally Posted by Hikash Winzalf:

mjemirzian was already trolling this game's threads when it was announced and has never stop since. His posts smell the frustrated fanboy to me.

Someone with an ogre battle avatar making trollish insults and calling me a fanboy. The hypocricy/irony doesn't get much thicker.

As you can see on the links I gave I'm not the only one to consider you as a troll and you forgot the word "frustrated" just before "fanboy" which has its importance.

 

[mjemirzian]

If you want to see exploit as a loaded word sure but I'm using it as under the "make the best use of" definition. I did say short of bugs. You're right in that analysis has nothing to do with fairness and that's why I said your premise is flawed. So, tell me why is it not flawed? Why is making use of everything short of bugs to make the game easier a better gauge of difficulty than working from the baseline before adding in optional systems and elements that may not be intended to be used in that manner?

First, you're trying to arbitrarily separate some optional features from other optional features. For example, promoting your units is optional, but does that give it some unique status that exempts it from being included in a game analysis? Of course not. You don't get to make an exception for game rules based on arbitrarily calling a feature "more optional than those other optional things over there".

Second, intents are meaningless when analyzing a games rules. Much like calling something "cheap" or "unfair" or "exploiting", by claiming "the developers didn't intend that!", you're trying to impose arbitrary morality on game rules that permit what you don't like. Not to mention that intent itself is a nebulous and arbitrary concept.

Now as to why optimal play is the best way to determine difficulty and balance. "Baseline" skill at a game is difficult to pin down. Optimal play is easy as it assumes the player does everything they can to win. Games are modeled on the player doing everything they can to increase their score or win. Even single player games with scoring systems and leaderboards are best subject to the analysis of optimal play, lest a skilled player later find a feature that imbalances and trivializes the games difficulty, causing it to fall out of competitive interest. Finally, if everyone tried analyzing a game while arbitrarily ignoring different parts of it that they didn't like, based on some nebulous concept of "baseline skill", you'd end up with an inconsistent mess.

It's only in certain genres like RPGs where legitimate scoring systems and legitimate difficulty is thrown out the window, often to the complete detriment of balance or skill analysis. That does not, however, excuse RPGs from being analyzed like any other set of game rules. It just means most RPGs are exceptionally poor at balance and skill measurement. It's the developers responsibility to design their game so that its difficulty isn't mitigated by imbalanced features. This is where player defined challenges come in. Technically in a player defined challenge you are altering the games rules, thus it isn't the same experience as the vanilla game rules. Thus it's still correct to criticize the vanilla game rules if they contain imbalanced features, even if a player defined challenge exists to try to address those issues.

People are claiming using saves is somehow an "easy mode". This is false. The game rules do not differentiate between someone who used quicksaves and who didn't. The autosave counter is entirely mitigated by the availability of quicksaves. Not to mention that it defies the typical classification of a mode, which is an on/off selection that alters the game rules. Now if it had an actual "hard mode" selection where you can't use anything but suspends (that is, a save that erases itself after loading), then you could say the difficulty of that mode is higher than the normal mode. However, no such mode exists, so you're left with what the developers handed to you.

Claiming that saves in this game don't reduce difficulty - false. The game has random factors that can be mitigated by using saves. For example, if you've played through the game for 10 or so turns, enough random events have occured that if you were to restart the battle, things might end up looking differently and you'd need to alter your strategy to adjust. With quicksaves, you can immediately reload from that last point without needing to deal with a different possible strategy. In addition, it will be possible to determine the fixed RNG list of your save and perform actions which usually accomplish what you want while still avoiding potential mishaps.

Anyway, I find it strange that people want to apologize and moralize for the developers instead of ask them to do a better job at balancing their games.

 

[thefil]

I'm can't say I'm glad that we've reach an era where developers adding more tools for players to tune and customize the difficulty and experience of their play results in multi-page diatribes cursing the yet-unreleased game for imbalance.

Can we have a separate OT for just being excited about the game and eager to play?

 

[Fimbulvetr]

They should have had an easy mode and made it so that CHARIOT is only available there.

Like the Immortal Marionette.

It doesn't matter to me because I just won't use it, but still.

 

[Jinko]

From what I played of the JP version (granted it wasn't a great deal) I didn't find it anywhere as difficult as FFT, some of you guys need to get over the Chariot already you can completely ignore it.

 

[-NeoTB1-]

Very excited for this game's release next week. I came across my PSX version a few weeks ago and it really got me in the mood.

 

[Urban Scholar]

Looking through I still see some of us are up in arms on Chariot still? Well folks it's purely optional so again I don't see the major issue. I fancy myself a bit adept at these strategy games and like to think I can plan ahead accordingly. Now will I screw up? Of course. Will I hit a mental block in a skirmish? Always happens at worst of times with the toughest foes. Now will I at that point use chariot? Well, it'll be my first playthrough and I want to enjoy the ride so you damn skippy I will.

 

[Kikujiro]

<cut>

Anyway, I find it strange that people want to apologize and moralize for the developers instead of ask them to do a better job at balancing their games.

Hikash, you have little clue what fanboy or troll means. But I'll give you a hint - both terms apply to you.

You sound like an asshole and we already know your opinion, there is no need to repeat it thousand times in every thread. If you don't like the game fine, but just stop insisting that you're right and everybody is wrong, because you're not.

 

[Quixzlizx]

Anyway, I find it strange that people want to apologize and moralize for the developers instead of ask them to do a better job at balancing their games.

This is the reason why you come off as such a tool. You're assuming that since you're some sort of SRPG "expert," your opinion somehow conveys the weight of some objective authority. You can't even deny this, because you're arrogant enough to cite your own blog like it's some sort of universally applicable design document for the SRPG genre. Citing yourself as an authority is essentially preaching to the choir. A choir solely consisting of yourself.

 

[GitarooMan]

I can't be the only one having Malstrom/The Gray Ghost flashbacks with this mjemirzian guy, right? Different subject, same style.

 

[Dead Prince]

just a few more days. totally excited. Come on amazon ship it out early.

 

[Urban Scholar]

just a few more days. totally excited. Come one amazon ship it out early.

I saw the tarot cards come in to work yesterday. I'll post them later on for those interested.

 

[RedNumberFive]

just a few more days. totally excited. Come on amazon ship it out early.

I've been checkingy email feverishly hoping that Amazon might make a mistake and ship either this or MvC3 to me early.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

I saw the tarot cards come in to work yesterday. I'll post them later on for those interested.

Yes please.

 

[Urban Scholar]

Yes please.

Will post this evening.

 

[duckroll]

I can't believe this is really finally actually happening. A remake of Tactics Ogre which does not look like shit, done by the original team, with a revised and expanded scenario from Matsuno, new UI from Minagawa, and a brand new translation by Alexander O Smith.

Shit like this shouldn't happen in the real world. We've all been incepted.

 

[Urban Scholar]

Shit like this shouldn't happen in the real world. We've all been incepted.

That must be one hell of a rabbit hole then!

 

[Gyoru]

The latest Active Time Babble podcast is almost entirely devoted to Tactics Ogre.

http://www.1up.com/news/active-time-babble-xxxi-tactics

 

[Minsc]

I can't believe this is really finally actually happening. A remake of Tactics Ogre which does not look like shit, done by the original team, with a revised and expanded scenario from Matsuno, new UI from Minagawa, and a brand new translation by Alexander O Smith.

Shit like this shouldn't happen in the real world. We've all been incepted.

4 days! I can't wait! I just really hope that the 3 DLC's make it over in a timely manner, otherwise when I finish the game I may just hold off on using the WORLD system too much til they do.

 

[Augemitbutter]

this game is proof that shenmue III will happen one day.

 

[drohne]

no longer have the patience for srpgs, but to is roughly the best game ever, and this is the best thread title ever

 

[Skilletor]

I really can't wait to play this game. I wanted so much to like the original, but the leveling system kept me from enjoying it. I am positive this will be one of my favorite games ever.

I just...I hate the font they used. I'm going to read all the dialog like the characters are yelling at one another.

 

[Dead Prince]

I really can't wait to play this game. I wanted so much to like the original, but the leveling system kept me from enjoying it. I am positive this will be one of my favorite games ever.

I just...I hate the font they used. I'm going to read all the dialog like the characters are yelling at one another.

No it looks awesome

 

[Skilletor]

No it looks awesome

THAT'S JUST YOUR OPINION.

 

[Quixzlizx]

THAT'S JUST YOUR OPINION.

Apparently you like the all-caps font more than you think.