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Wrasslin' Thread 20XX |OT| New Age WrestleGAF

I'd recommend watching videos from the youtube channel Wrestling Bios.
Especially the "reliving the war" ones. It covers, in chronological order, the whole Nitro vs Raw, including PPVs, week after week.

I don't think the first few episodes were that good... but all of 1997 was golden. The guy doing it has a great sense of humour :D
Now is the recommendation that I replace my quixotic "view the entire Monday Night Wars in their entirety" plan with these videos, or just supplement it?

Back in my mid-late-90s "smark" days my Monday Night Wars experience was being a WCW fanboy, almost never watching any WWF, and reading the big text recaps people did, though I forget who, I kinda assume it was Meltzer since the name is familiar, but I can't recall if he did free content. Whatever I read, referencing Hollywood Hogan's entrance music, he always wrote "Someone is cooking up a big old batch of Voodoo Chili" or something to that effect.

And then I always checked the TV ratings because somehow that seemed to matter to me :messenger_tears_of_joy:

I think this was all on USENET but I don't quite remember at this point.
 

Vestal

Junior Member
Just saw the ad for Raw next week..

Would this be the first time that Hunter appears on Raw since his heart issue & taking over?
 

RavageX

Member
Question to those who have been following wrestling now that were following it back in the late 90s/early 00's. How would you grade the state of it right now?

I was into wrestling back at the peak of the Attitude era, but when my parents got rid of cable around 2003 when I was still a kid, I had no way of watching it. Have been going through Youtube and watching old classics from that era and remembering just how fantastic it was. I tried getting back into it around 2008 or so and it just couldn't grab me. Didn't like the storylines, felt the wrestlers weren't that memorable etc.

Is it worth trying to get back into now? Have things improved or is it still much of the same old? I know Vince is now gone but I imagine that there won't have been any monumental changes that would've had time to come into effect yet.
Id give it all an F-. That includes NJPW. I can still go back and watch a lot of the stuff from the 90s, farther back too.

At some point it was decided that wrestlers need to talk for ages in the ring, then be interrupted by another wrestlers music just for them to come out and have a long ass debate on the mic with next to no action usually.

The wrestling looks a lot more like gym rehearsals now.

Most feel the need to always have something, a table or chair. They cant just....wrestle.

90s Japanese wrestling i loved and I can still go back and watch it. There was more predictability, but only if i watch back to back. The wrestling itself...GREAT!

Tried watching it now and its basically like watching wrestling here, and for some reason wrestlers now look like they need to eat and hit the gym. I feel like i have a decent shot at a title or two now. I wouldnt dare say that from the stuff back in the day.
 
Now is the recommendation that I replace my quixotic "view the entire Monday Night Wars in their entirety" plan with these videos, or just supplement it?
Dude, I've no idea.
I remember watching some episodes of Raw when I was a kid (around 95 96).
Then nothing until a couple years back. Had never heard of WCW until 2020.

And since I get bored watching a whole show, just watching the Reliving the war videos is perfect. Love it, and wish I had a way to follow all of it back in the day.

So... can't really tell you what to do, sadly. But the youtube show does cover every single fight and promo in each show.
 

dave_d

Member
I've got a bit of advice for those of you watching the old episodes. If they have WCW/NWA/Crocket from late 88-90 you probably want to watch that. I mean they had Flair/Steamboat and Flair/Funk. Plus the rise of Sting and Muta as major players. Great American Bash 89 was just an out and out classic. Just some of the best stuff I've ever seen.
 

NickFire

Member
I need to stop getting myself pumped up for MJF getting a run with the belt. But I can't help myself.

3 year anniversary tonight.
Pre-planned extra 15 minute over-run.

Yup - it's finally time I think. Until next week at least. :messenger_grinning_sweat:
 

GladiusFrog

Member
Decent Dynamite, MJF face tease has me intrigued and I :messenger_heart: The Acclaimed. ✂️✂️

edit: OMG that Piledriver Rush gave Hangman was almost a tragedy... yikes.
 
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Naked Lunch

Member
Very good Dynamite - definite step in the right direction.
Very solid wrestling matches with mostly clean finishes.
Even the womens match was good - finally.

Acclaimed segment was a modern classic.
Some interesting story bits (MJF and Jay Lethal turns?) MJF bit seemed crazy out of character - I donno.

Some nasty botches though.

Mox will retain in Cinncy to reward the guy in his home town for all the stuff he did for AEW all these years. Im sick of the guy but I think he deserves that kinda sendoff treatment for his run. He will quickly drop it to MJF.
 
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Soodanim

Member
I need to look to twitter for the botches. Imagine they had a big name have a career ending injury or death after everything else that's happened recently.

Is there a dead pool for AEW wrestlers? Who will die or be critically injured from a botch first?
 

Dthomp

Member
For those that didn't see it Wade Barrett was announcing on Smackdown last night. Speaking of bad news looks like Moxley is the new face of the company. I really hope they don't do something stupid like have him beat MJF but I wouldn't be surprised if they did.

Nothing screams interesting and AEW like WWE reject Dean Ambrose but he bleeds. AEW really had so much momentum and seem ready to make every bad TNA decision they can. Their product hasn't been this uninteresting in history. Are you all excited for fucking Pockets to win a title? Jeez, I wonder why so many of the WWE guys that were promised opportunities aren't happy never being used in AEW while so much TV time is wasted. Moxley is the biggest one I just don't get. His promos are fine, for an old ECW style guy, I just don't care about dude who wants to bleed and fight, isn't that what UFC is for? His wrestling ability is laughable and yet they sell him like he's 10x the dude Bret was in the ring, I just really can't comprehend. I hated the Hangman title reign, but fuck I miss that, at least he had the potential to wrestle different matches.

I feel bad for MJF, the dude is just a shitty Miz right now. He can only get heat by cheap anti sports team pops, and making jerking off motions to the crowd, then the match begins and he's Miz light out there with a better physique (Being home for 6 months makes that easy). Dude is gonna fail the same way Hangman did. These guys need years to improve, not to be thrown right into the main event. Those two should have been feuding over the TNT title for years and being built up like Bret/Shawn/Rock/HHH with that midcard belt until they were too big not to break through.

We have AEW with arguably the best two wrestlers on the planet in Omega and Danielson and our title picture is Miz Light vs. Dean Ambrose.

Watched Rampage/BotB and AEW really is like watching old Vince Raw/SD these days.
 

Soodanim

Member
Speaking of Pockets, does anyone actually like that gimmick? First time I saw it I had a chuckle because I thought it was a one off mindfuck sort of thing, but that is exactly the sort of thing that gets old the second time you do it. It's not quite as bad as Joey Ryan's dick flip, but it's somewhere down there near the bottom.
 

Dthomp

Member
Speaking of Pockets, does anyone actually like that gimmick? First time I saw it I had a chuckle because I thought it was a one off mindfuck sort of thing, but that is exactly the sort of thing that gets old the second time you do it. It's not quite as bad as Joey Ryan's dick flip, but it's somewhere down there near the bottom.

I could live with him if he was treated the way Danhausen is. I mean the guys gimmick is he doesn't care...so why doesn't he just lose almost all the time and just shrug and move on? He'd still sell dumb shirts to moron kids but then at least real wrestlers wouldn't be looking dumb losing to him.

Also, I love the insanity on r/SC over Brays return. It's like they all forgot he's a D- wrestler in the ring, and promos can only carry you so far in the WWE. ER while expected to be meh, was still barely above that bar. I didn't realize how few names were on the PPV, but bravo to Brawling Brutes and Imperium...it was great. Edge/Balor was overbooked BUT it was great towards the end. I feel like every Edge match would be great if we just cut 10-14 minutes of filler out of the beginning of each of his matches. Womens matches were horrible, Bayley should have won, and they look dumb losing basically a 3 on 1 match. Main event was....eh?
 

Soodanim

Member
I could live with him if he was treated the way Danhausen is. I mean the guys gimmick is he doesn't care...so why doesn't he just lose almost all the time and just shrug and move on? He'd still sell dumb shirts to moron kids but then at least real wrestlers wouldn't be looking dumb losing to him.
I wouldn't mind seeing him try the pockets gimmick, only for a Brock Lesnar type flatten him in response. Preferably stiffly, on behalf of those he's hurt because of his amateur skill level.
 

DKehoe

Member
Speaking of Pockets, does anyone actually like that gimmick? First time I saw it I had a chuckle because I thought it was a one off mindfuck sort of thing, but that is exactly the sort of thing that gets old the second time you do it. It's not quite as bad as Joey Ryan's dick flip, but it's somewhere down there near the bottom.
He’s really over. So yeh. Seems plenty of people like Orange Cassidy. From what I’ve seen it’s also something that really appears to people who don’t watch wrestling and can actually get them to start watching. So it’s really effective from that angle too. And also makes it funny when guys like Cornette talk about how it’s exposing the business.
 

Soodanim

Member
He’s really over. So yeh. Seems plenty of people like Orange Cassidy. From what I’ve seen it’s also something that really appears to people who don’t watch wrestling and can actually get them to start watching. So it’s really effective from that angle too. And also makes it funny when guys like Cornette talk about how it’s exposing the business.
That says a lot. There's the clown show audience and the wrestling audience, then. The same people that enjoy the circus routine at 0:25 in this video:
 

DKehoe

Member
That says a lot. There's the clown show audience and the wrestling audience, then. The same people that enjoy the circus routine at 0:25 in this video:

An Irish Whip is pretty stupid when you stop and think about it. Unless you’re talking about something like the Japanese UWF, basically all wrestling has hokey bullshit that doesn’t resemble what a real life fight looks like. Even stuff like 70s NWA that the cuck holds up as essentially the gold standard doesn’t exactly look like an MMA fight does it?

Wrestling is about if you can take something and make the audience buy in. I get The Young Bucks are divisive but they’re incredibly over with people. So what they do works. I wasn’t that into that cage match personally but a lot of people seemed to love it.

So if there’s the clown show audience and the real wrestling audience, who specifically are the real wrestling audience?
 

Soodanim

Member
An Irish Whip is pretty stupid when you stop and think about it. Unless you’re talking about something like the Japanese UWF, basically all wrestling has hokey bullshit that doesn’t resemble what a real life fight looks like. Even stuff like 70s NWA that the cuck holds up as essentially the gold standard doesn’t exactly look like an MMA fight does it?

Wrestling is about if you can take something and make the audience buy in. I get The Young Bucks are divisive but they’re incredibly over with people. So what they do works. I wasn’t that into that cage match personally but a lot of people seemed to love it.

So if there’s the clown show audience and the real wrestling audience, who specifically are the real wrestling audience?
That's an easy question to answer. The people that enjoy wrestling that doesn't fly in your face as an obviously choreographed routine is an easy place to start, and while you're right about Irish whips (as you referenced Jim, he even says the same) there's a big difference between Irish whips and Pockets or Bucks circus. Another easy part to the answer is if it's designed to be comedy wrestling, it's more than likely going to be bad. There's a couple of good tag team spots in that highlight video that you could see in a prime Hardy Boys PPV match, but the majority flat out bad and looks like jesters trying to make people laugh.

The concept of pro wrestling is also easy to follow if you trace the roots of it. It went from real to pre-determined, but it still needed to look like real wrestling. Obviously over time it morphed and you get gimmicks and personas eventually come in, but it still has to maintain some element of contest so that you gave a shit. Yes it's a lack of stars, but part of being a star is having the balance. The way Rock took that Stunner was OTT, but they were both so over and people were so invested that no one gave a shit and they rolled with it. What's there to roll with when you're watching synchronised routines?

Even if something's fictional, you can have good fiction and bad fiction. People waiting around while someone sets up for a high risk move is bad fiction, for example. Attitude Era was so popular because people were invested in the wrestlers and they weren't turned off by obvious bullshit like that. Mankind going off the cell is both a good and bad example because no one would ever recommend anyone do it, but take your pick between that and Jericho into the crash pads. If you want to look outside matches themselves, what got over more: Bucks promos (or any BTE video ever) or the "Fire me" MJF promo? "69 me Don" or "Austin 3:16"?

You're not wrong about the idea being to turn a profit, and the people that like the sort of thing I'm talking about watch it and buy it, but the numbers aren't exactly bringing many new fans in or lapsed fans back. Non-Elite wrestling got them their first 1mil PPV or whatever that was. You could also argue that FTR getting over with the fans naturally is because fans respond to that more than whatever the Bucks do, so perhaps even Bucks aren't such the guaranteed constant they once were.

Then they all got suspended and now we can't see what fans respond to more over time, so who knows what will happen 🤷🏻‍♂️
 

Vestal

Junior Member
Watch ER last night.

Show was alright. Brawling Brutes v Imperium was amazing. Anything those two touch right now is pure gold.

Edge v Judgement while heavily booked, worked story wise.

Riddle v Rollins was just OK. Personally, I still can’t seem to care about Riddle in the ring. So the outcome was meh.

Rhonda vs Liv. Meh. This goes back to the problem with how Rhonda is booked and Livs style. Liv doesn’t look physical enough to handle Rousey and it’s hard to buy into the match

Est vs Bailey. Match was good, but they forced a few spots that really broke the suspension of disbelief. Particularly the corner spot with Io and Dakota.

Lastly, that fucking ending. That was road warrior pop for Bray. Very well done, and gave goosebumps throughout.

Look forward to Monday season premier. This is the first Season premier under new leadership, and it feels like they are setting up multiple long programs between factions leading up to Survivor Series.
 
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Naked Lunch

Member
Wyatt needs to try making movies or TV shows. Hes done just about all he could with the wrestling art form - plus the fact he cant actually wrestle.
I think the guy is a genius but last nights reveal was pretty cheesy.
 

DKehoe

Member
That's an easy question to answer. The people that enjoy wrestling that doesn't fly in your face as an obviously choreographed routine is an easy place to start, and while you're right about Irish whips (as you referenced Jim, he even says the same) there's a big difference between Irish whips and Pockets or Bucks circus. Another easy part to the answer is if it's designed to be comedy wrestling, it's more than likely going to be bad. There's a couple of good tag team spots in that highlight video that you could see in a prime Hardy Boys PPV match, but the majority flat out bad and looks like jesters trying to make people laugh.

The concept of pro wrestling is also easy to follow if you trace the roots of it. It went from real to pre-determined, but it still needed to look like real wrestling. Obviously over time it morphed and you get gimmicks and personas eventually come in, but it still has to maintain some element of contest so that you gave a shit. Yes it's a lack of stars, but part of being a star is having the balance. The way Rock took that Stunner was OTT, but they were both so over and people were so invested that no one gave a shit and they rolled with it. What's there to roll with when you're watching synchronised routines?

Even if something's fictional, you can have good fiction and bad fiction. People waiting around while someone sets up for a high risk move is bad fiction, for example. Attitude Era was so popular because people were invested in the wrestlers and they weren't turned off by obvious bullshit like that. Mankind going off the cell is both a good and bad example because no one would ever recommend anyone do it, but take your pick between that and Jericho into the crash pads. If you want to look outside matches themselves, what got over more: Bucks promos (or any BTE video ever) or the "Fire me" MJF promo? "69 me Don" or "Austin 3:16"?

You're not wrong about the idea being to turn a profit, and the people that like the sort of thing I'm talking about watch it and buy it, but the numbers aren't exactly bringing many new fans in or lapsed fans back. Non-Elite wrestling got them their first 1mil PPV or whatever that was. You could also argue that FTR getting over with the fans naturally is because fans respond to that more than whatever the Bucks do, so perhaps even Bucks aren't such the guaranteed constant they once were.

Then they all got suspended and now we can't see what fans respond to more over time, so who knows what will happen 🤷🏻‍♂️
So you think wrestling in the 90s didn't look obviously fake to people? The undead wizard zombie who could shoot lightning wasn't rubbing it in people's faces? Scotty 2 Hotty's The Worm and The Rock's People's Elbow aren't obviously choreographed with their opponents just lying there in a way you'd never see in an actual fight? Both former wrestlers and the general public would talk about how ridiculous wrestling looked at the time. I'm not saying wrestling in the 90s was bad, I personally enjoyed it, but why is that on one side of the line of what's acceptable and modern elements are rubbing it in people's face? You say it's an easy question to answer but it seems hard to pin down exactly.

It just seems that for a lot of people who complain about how wrestling is overly fake now their line for what's acceptable just happens to be what they grew up with. During the 90s former wrestlers were saying the same kind of things about wrestling then that they are now. And now the wrestlers who were having those kinds of things said about them are saying it about current wrestlers. It's a cycle older than any of us. You can go back to 1914 and Farmer Burns, one of the biggest stars in wrestling history, was essentially saying that wrestlers of that era didn't know how to work and just did overly showy spots with no psychology rather than work like they used to back in his day.

C0lDbGFXUAAAF4f


Wrestling is like music, people build on what came before. Up and comers take the current thing and put their own spin on it, that difference then maybe catches on as more people do it so it becomes the norm and then someone else comes along and changes it up. It's an ever evolving process. Like with music in wrestling people tend to love what they grew up with and that becomes their own personal golden age. They can maybe appreciate the stuff that came before and a bit after that but tend to eventually stop being into current music because it's no longer to their taste. The way older people have said for decades how current popular music "isn't real music" is similar to the way you hear some people talk about wrestling. Mediums just evolve. It reminds me of this Simpsons bit



You say that The Rock overselling stuff was fine because he was really over. So why isn't it ok for The Young Bucks to do over the top stuff? I'm not saying they're as over as The Rock but they're clearly over going by the reactions they get and the difference they make to business. So again, is there some arbitrary line somewhere between their level of over and The Rock's?

I'm not saying that wrestling is only good if it's drawing but if you are doing something that's getting over with fans then you must be doing something right. To use your example of the Bucks promos or their BTE stuff, clearly it did get over and make a huge difference because on the back of that they were able to draw over 10,000 people to a show that didn't have promotional support from an established wrestling company and that led to a major promotion being founded. So we can see the difference they are able to make. As I said, people can not like The Young Bucks, that is completely fine and I've no issue with that. But acting like they don't make a difference to business when they clearly do is being unreasonable. The BTE stuff wasn't really for me personally but you can point to it making a tangible difference much more than you can with that MJF promo.

There's all kinds of wrestling. It's not like there's one objective right version and doing anything other than that is wrong. Why can't people enjoy comedy wrestling? It's kinda like saying Jackie Chan films aren't good action films because he does unrealistic comedy spots during fight scenes. You would think that the cuck, a guy whose idea of a fun time includes having a banana rammed up his ass, would understand that different people can like different things.

People act like someone who doesn't watch wrestling seeing Orange Cassidy is going to kill off any chance of them becoming a fan. But as I've said before I've known a bunch of people who saw his work and got interested in watching wrestling as a result. So how is what he is doing wrong? Not everyone wants to watch something like (I'm just picking a name of a well respected worker at random here) a Randy Orton match.
 
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Kagey K

Banned
So you think wrestling in the 90s didn't look obviously fake to people? The undead wizard zombie who could shoot lightning wasn't rubbing it in people's faces? Scotty 2 Hotty's The Worm and The Rock's People's Elbow aren't obviously choreographed with their opponents just lying there in a way you'd never see in an actual fight? Both former wrestlers and the general public would talk about how ridiculous wrestling looked at the time. I'm not saying wrestling in the 90s was bad, I personally enjoyed it, but why is that on one side of the line of what's acceptable and modern elements are rubbing it in people's face? You say it's an easy question to answer but it seems hard to pin down exactly.

It just seems that for a lot of people who complain about how wrestling is overly fake now their line for what's acceptable just happens to be what they grew up with. During the 90s former wrestlers were saying the same kind of things about wrestling then that they are now. And now the wrestlers who were having those kinds of things said about them are saying it about current wrestlers. It's a cycle older than any of us. You can go back to 1914 and Farmer Burns, one of the biggest stars in wrestling history, was essentially saying that wrestlers of that era didn't know how to work and just did overly showy spots with no psychology rather than work like they used to back in his day.

C0lDbGFXUAAAF4f


Wrestling is like music, people build on what came before. Up and comers take the current thing and put their own spin on it, that difference then maybe catches on as more people do it so it becomes the norm and then someone else comes along and changes it up. It's an ever evolving process. Like with music in wrestling people tend to love what they grew up with and that becomes their own personal golden age. They can maybe appreciate the stuff that came before and a bit after that but tend to eventually stop being into current music because it's no longer to their taste. The way older people have said for decades how current popular music "isn't real music" is similar to the way you hear some people talk about wrestling. Mediums just evolve. It reminds me of this Simpsons bit



You say that The Rock overselling stuff was fine because he was really over. So why isn't it ok for The Young Bucks to do over the top stuff? I'm not saying they're as over as The Rock but they're clearly over going by the reactions they get and the difference they make to business. So again, is there some arbitrary line somewhere between their level of over and The Rock's?

I'm not saying that wrestling is only good if it's drawing but if you are doing something that's getting over with fans then you must be doing something right. To use your example of the Bucks promos or their BTE stuff, clearly it did get over and make a huge difference because on the back of that they were able to draw over 10,000 people to a show that didn't have promotional support from an established wrestling company and that led to a major promotion being founded. So we can see the difference they are able to make. As I said, people can not like The Young Bucks, that is completely fine and I've no issue with that. But acting like they don't make a difference to business when they clearly do is being unreasonable. The BTE stuff wasn't really for me personally but you can point to it making a tangible difference much more than you can with that MJF promo.

There's all kinds of wrestling. It's not like there's one objective right version and doing anything other than that is wrong. Why can't people enjoy comedy wrestling? It's kinda like saying Jackie Chan films aren't good action films because he does unrealistic comedy spots during fight scenes. You would think that the cuck, a guy whose idea of a fun time includes having a banana rammed up his ass, would understand that different people can like different things.

People act like someone who doesn't watch wrestling seeing Orange Cassidy is going to kill off any chance of them becoming a fan. But as I've said before I've known a bunch of people who saw his work and got interested in watching wrestling as a result. So how is what he is doing wrong? Not everyone wants to watch something like (I'm just picking a name of a well respected worker at random here) a Randy Orton match.

My biggest problem with modern wrestling probably has to do with everyone coming up through the NXT school.

Every spot is planned rehearsed and telegraphed.

There's no more heels calling the matches and working the crowd.


They start getting heat and they just move to the next phase instead of helping the crowd buy into it.

If something is working you don't just move to the next spot, you milk it for all its worth and change sone things to continue the story.

That level of improvisation in ring seems to be gone in the modern era.
 
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DKehoe

Member
My biggest problem with modern wrestling probably has to do with everyone coming up through the NXT school.

Every spot is planned rehearsed and telegraphed.

There's no more heels calling the matches and working the crowd.


They start getting heat and they just move to the next phase instead of helping the crowd buy into it.

If something is working you don't just move to the next spot, you milk it for all its worth and change sone things to continue the story.

That level of improvisation in ring seems to be gone in the modern era.
I think that's a reflection of WWE's need to have control over everything. So not only are the promos scripted out word for word but what the wrestlers do in the match is laid out too. So it makes a lot of the stuff feel the same and means they can't naturally react to the crowd
 

Kagey K

Banned
I think that's a reflection of WWE's need to have control over everything. So not only are the promos scripted out word for word but what the wrestlers do in the match is laid out too. So it makes a lot of the stuff feel the same and means they can't naturally react to the crowd
Which is a shame, because from the golden era to Ruthless Agression, you can see how the wrestlers played to the crowd, and why they were so into it

The decline happened when it went PG 13 and the "superstars" started ignoring fan reactions, to hit all the planned spots.
 
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Soodanim

Member
You wrote so much that I needed to find time to reply, sorry about that! For my own sanity I'll cut it up and reply to sections rather than the whole thing.
So you think wrestling in the 90s didn't look obviously fake to people? The undead wizard zombie who could shoot lightning wasn't rubbing it in people's faces? Scotty 2 Hotty's The Worm and The Rock's People's Elbow aren't obviously choreographed with their opponents just lying there in a way you'd never see in an actual fight? Both former wrestlers and the general public would talk about how ridiculous wrestling looked at the time. I'm not saying wrestling in the 90s was bad, I personally enjoyed it, but why is that on one side of the line of what's acceptable and modern elements are rubbing it in people's face? You say it's an easy question to answer but it seems hard to pin down exactly.
I don't recall 'Taker shooting lightning in the middle of a match. I think the key thing is obvious cooperation. When Rock gives someone the spinebuster then gets round and does a 15 second bit, at least the opponent has just taken a move and is down. Compare that to the example of Bucks and the whatshisfaces, where it couldn't be more obvious that they're helping each other out and continuing to run around. Neither of them are MMA, but it isn't a binary sort of "Real" and "Fake". That's not to say The People's Elbow and The Worm are realistic, because that isn't my point. It's like in other fiction: you know it's fiction, but some things can take you out of it and break the suspension of disbelief.
It just seems that for a lot of people who complain about how wrestling is overly fake now their line for what's acceptable just happens to be what they grew up with. During the 90s former wrestlers were saying the same kind of things about wrestling then that they are now. And now the wrestlers who were having those kinds of things said about them are saying it about current wrestlers. It's a cycle older than any of us. You can go back to 1914 and Farmer Burns, one of the biggest stars in wrestling history, was essentially saying that wrestlers of that era didn't know how to work and just did overly showy spots with no psychology rather than work like they used to back in his day.

C0lDbGFXUAAAF4f


Wrestling is like music, people build on what came before. Up and comers take the current thing and put their own spin on it, that difference then maybe catches on as more people do it so it becomes the norm and then someone else comes along and changes it up. It's an ever evolving process. Like with music in wrestling people tend to love what they grew up with and that becomes their own personal golden age. They can maybe appreciate the stuff that came before and a bit after that but tend to eventually stop being into current music because it's no longer to their taste. The way older people have said for decades how current popular music "isn't real music" is similar to the way you hear some people talk about wrestling. Mediums just evolve. It reminds me of this Simpsons bit
When they decided to make it predetermined and there was an industry secret to keep because they still wanted to make money, of course someone risking that would be a problem. Luckily for the wrestling industry, they made it work and they managed to build something around it to keep people interested. If it hadn't had worked then the people criticising would have been proven right, but wrestling went on to make a shit ton of money. When AEW are losing numbers both during shows and overall on TV, I don't think the current methods are quite working that well. Of course, that gets into the entire picture of how everything is set up, because it's not just matches themselves with no promos etc.


You say that The Rock overselling stuff was fine because he was really over. So why isn't it ok for The Young Bucks to do over the top stuff? I'm not saying they're as over as The Rock but they're clearly over going by the reactions they get and the difference they make to business. So again, is there some arbitrary line somewhere between their level of over and The Rock's?

I'm not saying that wrestling is only good if it's drawing but if you are doing something that's getting over with fans then you must be doing something right. To use your example of the Bucks promos or their BTE stuff, clearly it did get over and make a huge difference because on the back of that they were able to draw over 10,000 people to a show that didn't have promotional support from an established wrestling company and that led to a major promotion being founded. So we can see the difference they are able to make. As I said, people can not like The Young Bucks, that is completely fine and I've no issue with that. But acting like they don't make a difference to business when they clearly do is being unreasonable. The BTE stuff wasn't really for me personally but you can point to it making a tangible difference much more than you can with that MJF promo. There's all kinds of wrestling. It's not like there's one objective right version and doing anything other than that is wrong. Why can't people enjoy comedy wrestling? It's kinda like saying Jackie Chan films aren't good action films because he does unrealistic comedy spots during fight scenes. You would think that the cuck, a guy whose idea of a fun time includes having a banana rammed up his ass, would understand that different people can like different things.

Again, it's selling vs cooperating to do a routine. If Rock and Austin were doing routines like that, they wouldn't have been main eventing Wrestlemania. The proof is in the pudding, people loved their stuff because they could get into it. It's still wrestling, but they were invested in a competition. No one is invested in a routine, even if they enjoy it. Marvelling at a routine fades.

When it comes to the origins of AEW, I think a bigger part of it was that it was finally an anti-WWE that had potential to succeed in a way that no one else had since WCW at a time that WWE had driven away so many fans thanks to a billionaire running it. That's why HHH taking over has been so interesting, because before it was "Get away from Vince's company to the new guy" and now already people are going back. That's more the talent side than fans, but people will follow their favourites so time will tell how that plays out.

I'm just not convinced that a silly comedy YouTube channel with niche appeal and the wrestling style of the people that run it will have long term drawing power, even if it does have its fans. From what I've seen its full of inside jokes for the marks, like the time they all collectively fucked up a group powerbomb then laughed at it. That's not exactly broadly drawing stuff.
People act like someone who doesn't watch wrestling seeing Orange Cassidy is going to kill off any chance of them becoming a fan. But as I've said before I've known a bunch of people who saw his work and got interested in watching wrestling as a result. So how is what he is doing wrong? Not everyone wants to watch something like (I'm just picking a name of a well respected worker at random here) a Randy Orton match.
Sure, there's anecdotes, but what he's doing wrong is turning people away just as much, which is reflected in the numbers. There's the comedy wrestling fans, but you lose any chance of getting new non-comedy wrestling fans in the process. And what happens when people get bored of his gimmick? Telling the same joke stops being funny eventually.
 

DKehoe

Member
You wrote so much that I needed to find time to reply, sorry about that! For my own sanity I'll cut it up and reply to sections rather than the whole thing.
No worries! Apologies I didn't mean to write so much but just kinda went all over the place.

I don't recall 'Taker shooting lightning in the middle of a match. I think the key thing is obvious cooperation. When Rock gives someone the spinebuster then gets round and does a 15 second bit, at least the opponent has just taken a move and is down. Compare that to the example of Bucks and the whatshisfaces, where it couldn't be more obvious that they're helping each other out and continuing to run around. Neither of them are MMA, but it isn't a binary sort of "Real" and "Fake". That's not to say The People's Elbow and The Worm are realistic, because that isn't my point. It's like in other fiction: you know it's fiction, but some things can take you out of it and break the suspension of disbelief.

If it happens during the show then it's during the show. Whether Undertaker does it during the match, before or after it's clearly not real or anywhere close to presenting a show that is part of a legitimate contest. When someone lies down for 15 seconds during a match then that's fake. It doesn't look like a legit fight. It just seems like you're saying the suspension of belief works for you for The Rock because you like him but not for The Young Bucks because you don't like them. And again, personal preferences are all fine and good but there's not some objective line about this stuff.

When they decided to make it predetermined and there was an industry secret to keep because they still wanted to make money, of course someone risking that would be a problem. Luckily for the wrestling industry, they made it work and they managed to build something around it to keep people interested. If it hadn't had worked then the people criticising would have been proven right, but wrestling went on to make a shit ton of money. When AEW are losing numbers both during shows and overall on TV, I don't think the current methods are quite working that well. Of course, that gets into the entire picture of how everything is set up, because it's not just matches themselves with no promos etc.
You can look back at newspaper articles from the turn of the 20th century and people were talking about how wrestling is fake. The wrestling industry loves the idea that they were working "the marks" for decades and only recently did the public figure it out. But people have always known and it's always been talked about. If anything people in the wrestling industry who believe otherwise are the marks. People knowing wrestling is fake hasn't stopped it from being a successful entertainment medium. People know that movies are fake and still enjoy those.

AEW has recently done a bunch of million-dollar gates and just today an exec from Warner Bros. Discovery talked about how AEW does huge numbers for them and they're looking to get them to produce more content for them. Numbers wise AEW is doing great.



Again, it's selling vs cooperating to do a routine. If Rock and Austin were doing routines like that, they wouldn't have been main eventing Wrestlemania. The proof is in the pudding, people loved their stuff because they could get into it. It's still wrestling, but they were invested in a competition. No one is invested in a routine, even if they enjoy it. Marvelling at a routine fades.
Your view seems to be based around the idea that The Young Bucks aren't effective. But they are, for reasons I've outlined a few times now. Plenty of people are invested in The Young Bucks and what they do works for that audience They've sold a shitload of merch, are over with crowds and have significantly improved business for multiple promotions. If in 1914 Farmer Burns thought wrestlers of the day were co-operating to do routines then what would he have thought of Austin, The Rock or basically anyone from the 90s? So why is your line for when something becomes co-operating to do a routine any more valid than his? It's not definitive, it's entirely subjective. And like I said, I think for a lot of people it's defined by the stuff they grew up with.

When it comes to the origins of AEW, I think a bigger part of it was that it was finally an anti-WWE that had potential to succeed in a way that no one else had since WCW at a time that WWE had driven away so many fans thanks to a billionaire running it. That's why HHH taking over has been so interesting, because before it was "Get away from Vince's company to the new guy" and now already people are going back. That's more the talent side than fans, but people will follow their favourites so time will tell how that plays out.

I'm just not convinced that a silly comedy YouTube channel with niche appeal and the wrestling style of the people that run it will have long term drawing power, even if it does have its fans. From what I've seen its full of inside jokes for the marks, like the time they all collectively fucked up a group powerbomb then laughed at it. That's not exactly broadly drawing stuff.
There's been a gap in the market for an alternative to WWE for decades, ever since WCW went away. AEW was able to happen because of the talent available at the time, and that includes The Young Bucks. All Out was essentially a proof of concept that led to AEW. No All Out no AEW, it's simple enough. If Tony Khan wasn't able to point to that then he doesn't get the TV deal he got and at that point it doesn't matter how rich his family is, AEW would not have an outlet to exist. It's been nearly 4 years now. If it was going to be a flash-in-the-pan thing then it would have faded away by now. As I said above they've just done a bunch of million dollar gates and their TV partner is looking to produce more shows with them because they've been so happy with the numbers AEW has produced.

The BTE youtube stuff isn't for me either. But clearly it has helped them draw right? And your point was that it hasn't. But the Bucks have been a major act in the wrestling industry for quite a few years now. Since they and Cornette are often brought up in connection with each other it's worth noting that when Cornette stopped having a creative influence in ROH and they shifted to having a major focus on the Bucks the promotion did its biggest business ever. If an act is working I don't see any reason to just try and come up with reasons that it's not working. They're over, they make a difference and they have for years.

Sure, there's anecdotes, but what he's doing wrong is turning people away just as much, which is reflected in the numbers. There's the comedy wrestling fans, but you lose any chance of getting new non-comedy wrestling fans in the process. And what happens when people get bored of his gimmick? Telling the same joke stops being funny eventually.
Orange Cassidy has been a top ratings draw and top merch seller for them. He's massively over with the crowd. Again it just seems like you're trying to say that an act that does work doesn't. Should Orange Cassidy be their world champion and the focus of the promotion? No, I wouldn't say so. But clearly there can be a role for him where he can be an asset. The fact that AEW has paid for multiple music rights for him shows they clearly see value in him that has warranted further investment.

A wrestling show should have a good variety to it. Some comedy can be fine. Yeh your main event stuff should have a serious tone but you can mix things up. Wrestling that takes itself incredibly seriously is out there. If people want to watch shoot style stuff with no comedy then they can. I don't see any evidence that a significant number of people want no comedy wrestling. Seems like most people want a variety. The idea that people aren't watching wrestling because it doesn't take itself seriously enough is kind of the opposite from reality in my experience at least where people who aren't into wrestling find it ridiculous precisely because it does take itself too seriously.

If people get bored of the gimmick then he can get a new gimmick. That's pretty standard for wrestling. I've seen him work other gimmicks before. His work as Fire Ant played a major role in getting him signed to AEW.
 

AJUMP23

Member
Finally a belt on Cassidy [I think he should have been TNT champ]. And man what a great story with the Jericho/Danielson match.
 
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Dthomp

Member
Gross Dynamite. Danielson can't even win the useless ROH title, he might be the worst use of a former WWE guy they have, and then to end the show putting a belt on fucking Pockets? What a joke TK has turned AEW into over the last year. HHH takes over and flips WWE quality overnight and TK decides to bring out his inner Vince with this shit. So now your champs are completely unbeatable Moxley (Who will only lose due to MITB cash in), Wardlow (Can only wrestle squash matches), Acclaimed...who I love but Billy is the one who's over there, Jade...who cares, Toni....who cares, and fucking Pockets beating people he has no business being in the ring with to begin with.

Danielson losing to Hangman was supposed to make Hangman look legit, but then Danielson just started to lose to everybody so it became meaningless. This feud with Jericho is awful and it's gone on too long (Another AEW issue), they have given the crowd no reason to care at all about the RoH belts or brand. I feel bad for the talent in AEW, cause they do bust their asses, only for stupid Vince levels of booking to be the end game. Swerve having to cheat to beat old man Billy? Really?
 

Naked Lunch

Member
Not getting the love for new WWE.
I tried to watch this week's Raw and it started with a 45 minute talking session - mostly between the stoner Bro and Honorary UCE. That segment was simply un-watchable TV.
Then there was a famous WWE cake in the face segment.
Brock Lesner entered the ring and F5'd someone for a half hour straight. Something I remember seeing over and over for 10+ years now.
Cant forget the old farts screaming suck it for 20 minutes to end the show.
I dont remember any good actual wrestling matches and it was the same ol WWE story beats and grade school gags and jokes.
 
It was fun to see Pac get in on the comedy kicks, very entertaining match. But, I do agree about the Danielson stuff... my first ever exposure to him was losing to Moxley on some Pay Per View then Lord Steven Regal... I mean I guess he's William Regal but he'll always be Steve to me... Lord Regal showed up and forced them to be Blackpool Friends. And that dude has eaten a lot of Ls since. In my lived experience he's basically a random jobber.

Aside from that, the Toronto crowd was pretty into it and I thought it was a good show, *shrug*.

I still like it better than WWE at the moment.
 

Soodanim

Member
No worries! Apologies I didn't mean to write so much but just kinda went all over the place.
It's all good, this is a wide subject we could sit down and talk about for a long time in person, so it's no surprise we're both writing a lot
If it happens during the show then it's during the show. Whether Undertaker does it during the match, before or after it's clearly not real or anywhere close to presenting a show that is part of a legitimate contest. When someone lies down for 15 seconds during a match then that's fake. It doesn't look like a legit fight. It just seems like you're saying the suspension of belief works for you for The Rock because you like him but not for The Young Bucks because you don't like them. And again, personal preferences are all fine and good but there's not some objective line about this stuff.
Everyone knows he's not a real undead person, so I think there is an inherent disconnect between the gimmick and the match if the match is presented as a legitimate contest.

When it comes to the example of Rock, I think it's a whole package thing that people accept(ed) it because everything leads up to it. The spinebuster > elbow combo is something that follows a big slam, usually at the finish, so even though everyone goes in knowing it's fake it's an easier pill to swallow than two tag teams full of energy doing a scripted routine. It's like red barrels meaning explosions. Yes, it's not real, but it's accepted. But if you see the wirework for the stunt, it's going to ruin it. The Bucks don't even pretend when they're doing routines, so I can't even begin to accept the work. It's not just Bucks, just that the cage match is an example. There's plenty of things I dislike that many more people do.

I get what you're saying, because on paper it's all a load of horseshit. But for better or worse, wrestling had a hell of a lot of people that watched it in the Attitude Era and that's gone. There's got to be a reason for that, even when you remove UFC as a factor.

As Jim's come up a few times, the reason I got hooked on his podcast is that when I came across a few clips he was explaining the behind the scenes stuff that without being told you wouldn't necessarily think about. The psychology of it for example, and why when that's gone it's not as engaging. Classic heel/babyface stuff that does get you engaged because you're rooting for the good guy and the bad guy is sneaky cheating fuck. The basics drive the whole thing, and that makes sense. It's an answer to the question "Why was that entertaining and why is so much of it not drawing me in any more?" Why and how a hot tag works, for example. People hate Jim because he criticises, but I think they miss the point. All he really wants is for people to get the basics and walk before they can run, and to respect the business they're in. Plus the stories. I love the stories.
You can look back at newspaper articles from the turn of the 20th century and people were talking about how wrestling is fake. The wrestling industry loves the idea that they were working "the marks" for decades and only recently did the public figure it out. But people have always known and it's always been talked about. If anything people in the wrestling industry who believe otherwise are the marks. People knowing wrestling is fake hasn't stopped it from being a successful entertainment medium. People know that movies are fake and still enjoy those.
I love seeing those articles, I've seen a few on Reddit. It shows how different things were when wrestling was a big enough source of entertainment that people's thoughts on it were newspaper worthy. But even with it being fake, it didn't stop how invested people got. I think the genuine danger the talent was in because of that level of investment shows that there was a different level of fandom that doesn't exist today, for better or worse.
AEW has recently done a bunch of million-dollar gates and just today an exec from Warner Bros. Discovery talked about how AEW does huge numbers for them and they're looking to get them to produce more content for them. Numbers wise AEW is doing great.


Yeah it's definitely an interesting one, because you see dropping numbers pretty often (a recent one I saw was Battle of the Belts, consistent drops from one event to the next) but then you have execs saying things like that. Of course if there's been a deal made they're not going to come out and say "They're not the best we've ever had but they'll do", but at the same time they have to be drawing enough to get a deal in the first place so even with drops they're still doing well enough.
Your view seems to be based around the idea that The Young Bucks aren't effective. But they are, for reasons I've outlined a few times now. Plenty of people are invested in The Young Bucks and what they do works for that audience They've sold a shitload of merch, are over with crowds and have significantly improved business for multiple promotions. If in 1914 Farmer Burns thought wrestlers of the day were co-operating to do routines then what would he have thought of Austin, The Rock or basically anyone from the 90s? So why is your line for when something becomes co-operating to do a routine any more valid than his? It's not definitive, it's entirely subjective. And like I said, I think for a lot of people it's defined by the stuff they grew up with.
I touched on it above, but to reiterate I think the level of co-operation plays a part. I saw a crowd view clip the other day of someone standing on someone's shoulders in the ring, with a group of ~5 stood outside who eventually get jumped on from inside the ring. It's so blatantly obvious that it's a stunt, and there's no psychology there or reason to care even the tiniest amount. Pro wrestling is more than just the moves, and something like that is just stunts. Farmer Burns comes from the era of actual legitimate wrestling where he earned his title, so of course he was going to have opinions on anything but that. I wouldn't expect anything less.
There's been a gap in the market for an alternative to WWE for decades, ever since WCW went away. AEW was able to happen because of the talent available at the time, and that includes The Young Bucks. All Out was essentially a proof of concept that led to AEW. No All Out no AEW, it's simple enough. If Tony Khan wasn't able to point to that then he doesn't get the TV deal he got and at that point it doesn't matter how rich his family is, AEW would not have an outlet to exist. It's been nearly 4 years now. If it was going to be a flash-in-the-pan thing then it would have faded away by now. As I said above they've just done a bunch of million dollar gates and their TV partner is looking to produce more shows with them because they've been so happy with the numbers AEW has produced.
If I were to guess based on looking at the card of All In, they may have been popular but there's bigger names than them to point to as draws. Bubba Ray and Cody Rhodes jump out straight away.
The BTE youtube stuff isn't for me either. But clearly it has helped them draw right? And your point was that it hasn't. But the Bucks have been a major act in the wrestling industry for quite a few years now. Since they and Cornette are often brought up in connection with each other it's worth noting that when Cornette stopped having a creative influence in ROH and they shifted to having a major focus on the Bucks the promotion did its biggest business ever. If an act is working I don't see any reason to just try and come up with reasons that it's not working. They're over, they make a difference and they have for years.
That's interesting. I don't know anything about any of that so I can't comment either way, but it's definitely interesting.
Orange Cassidy has been a top ratings draw and top merch seller for them. He's massively over with the crowd. Again it just seems like you're trying to say that an act that does work doesn't. Should Orange Cassidy be their world champion and the focus of the promotion? No, I wouldn't say so. But clearly there can be a role for him where he can be an asset. The fact that AEW has paid for multiple music rights for him shows they clearly see value in him that has warranted further investment.
I'll never understand the draw of OC. All I see is a one trick pony with nothing else to offer except hurting wrestlers when he wrestles. I hear what you're saying, though.
A wrestling show should have a good variety to it. Some comedy can be fine. Yeh your main event stuff should have a serious tone but you can mix things up. Wrestling that takes itself incredibly seriously is out there. If people want to watch shoot style stuff with no comedy then they can. I don't see any evidence that a significant number of people want no comedy wrestling. Seems like most people want a variety. The idea that people aren't watching wrestling because it doesn't take itself seriously enough is kind of the opposite from reality in my experience at least where people who aren't into wrestling find it ridiculous precisely because it does take itself too seriously.

If people get bored of the gimmick then he can get a new gimmick. That's pretty standard for wrestling. I've seen him work other gimmicks before. His work as Fire Ant played a major role in getting him signed to AEW.
I completely agree! Variety is absolutely necessary, and why people like Eddy Guerrero and The Rock were so popular - they could do a range of things. Using extremes is just to make the point, and a 100% serious show would be boring as fuck. But also sometimes when I talk about taking it seriously I mean respecting the business part, which circles back to presenting it as a contest and not a choreographed routine.
 

DKehoe

Member
Everyone knows he's not a real undead person, so I think there is an inherent disconnect between the gimmick and the match if the match is presented as a legitimate contest.
Yeh it's about suspension of disbelief and making it work. That's kinda my point with all of this. That if it works then it works.

When it comes to the example of Rock, I think it's a whole package thing that people accept(ed) it because everything leads up to it. The spinebuster > elbow combo is something that follows a big slam, usually at the finish, so even though everyone goes in knowing it's fake it's an easier pill to swallow than two tag teams full of energy doing a scripted routine. It's like red barrels meaning explosions. Yes, it's not real, but it's accepted. But if you see the wirework for the stunt, it's going to ruin it. The Bucks don't even pretend when they're doing routines, so I can't even begin to accept the work. It's not just Bucks, just that the cage match is an example. There's plenty of things I dislike that many more people do.

I get what you're saying, because on paper it's all a load of horseshit. But for better or worse, wrestling had a hell of a lot of people that watched it in the Attitude Era and that's gone. There's got to be a reason for that, even when you remove UFC as a factor.
There would be plenty of people who watched wrestling in years past who would look at what The Rock did and say that they can see the wire work and that it's clearly a routine though. If the difference is the audience they drew then let's take Lou Thesz as an example. He worked a much more realistic style than The Rock and once drew an 87 rating. The attitude era's peak at it's best was drawing 5 or 6 percent of the viewing audience, and Thesz drew 87 percent of an audience. So that shits all over any ratings The Rock drew during the peak of The Attitude Era. Do you think that if The Rock did less hokey bullshit, did less elaborate routines and worked a style that looked more legitimate he could have been as over as Lou Thesz? Imagine I took a stance that The Rock is a bad wrestler based on those factors. It's obviously not a fair comparison because the industry and society as a whole has changed. The Bucks are one of the most over acts on a show that is regularly the number one show on cable that night. I just don't get people acting like they aren't effective. As I keep saying, not liking them is totally fine. But at some point you have to at least acknowledge what they do has been effective.

As Jim's come up a few times, the reason I got hooked on his podcast is that when I came across a few clips he was explaining the behind the scenes stuff that without being told you wouldn't necessarily think about. The psychology of it for example, and why when that's gone it's not as engaging. Classic heel/babyface stuff that does get you engaged because you're rooting for the good guy and the bad guy is sneaky cheating fuck. The basics drive the whole thing, and that makes sense. It's an answer to the question "Why was that entertaining and why is so much of it not drawing me in any more?" Why and how a hot tag works, for example. People hate Jim because he criticises, but I think they miss the point. All he really wants is for people to get the basics and walk before they can run, and to respect the business they're in. Plus the stories. I love the stories.
opular - they could do a range of things. Using extremes is just to make the point, and a 100% serious show would be boring as fuck. But also sometimes when I talk about taking it seriously I mean respecting the business part, which circles back to presenting it as a contest and not a choreographed routine.
Cornette is a smart guy with an amazing knowledge of the history of the business and a great understanding of what makes things work. I used to listen to his podcast because like you say it's great hearing someone with that kind of knowledge and experience break down why something does or doesn't work. You say people hate Jim because he criticises, but it's more because he's become a caricature of himself. There are wrestlers that he doesn't like for personal reasons, be that due to direct experience with them or because of their style. And that's totally fine. But a few of those wrestlers (most notably Omega and The Young Bucks, although there are others) have only gone on to become bigger and bigger stars. Cornette hated Omega in ROH and it was one thing when that's a guy who wasn't that big a star and in front of the smaller crowds of Cornette era ROH but since then he's gone on to headline stadium shows and been a big difference maker in multiple promotions across the world. And yet Cornette is still talking about him in the same way. He has gone from explaining why things do or don't work to trying to explain why things that work don't actually. His ego and emotional issues won't allow him to just say "fuck it, I hate this shit but it works." And he's got an audience that now just expects him to rip into this stuff. You see it with a lot of critics in other mediums, they get a reputation for tearing into stuff and so their audience builds up around that expectation "I can't wait to hear X DESTROY Y" and that kind of thing. It's also worth pointing out that he doesn't even really believe a lot of the stuff he says, or not at least to the degree he does. He's working a gimmick and taking his opinions and turning the volume up on them. Back when he and Meltzer were still friends it was funny to hear him come on Observer Radio and sound like a different person than when he's on his podcast. It's really a shame to see what he's become because he could be so much better than this.

Yeah it's definitely an interesting one, because you see dropping numbers pretty often (a recent one I saw was Battle of the Belts, consistent drops from one event to the next) but then you have execs saying things like that. Of course if there's been a deal made they're not going to come out and say "They're not the best we've ever had but they'll do", but at the same time they have to be drawing enough to get a deal in the first place so even with drops they're still doing well enough.
People fixate on single ratings on a week to week basis or what the trend has been like over a short period and try and draw conclusions. The AEW vs WWE stuff has made a lot of people pay more attention to ratings than they used to, but if you don't know what you're looking at then it can be hard to draw definitive conclusions because there are so many factors at play like what else was on that night or what time of year it is. So I see a lot of people jumping to conclusions based on that. But a lot of these people don't really get how ratings work but will just confidently act like they do. They might go up and down but AEW does great numbers overall. I saw people genuinely surprised that someone from WB Discovery was talking about how happy they are with them. But Dynamite is frequently the number one show on the night it airs and delivers great demo numbers. The promotion as a whole is a huge success.

I touched on it above, but to reiterate I think the level of co-operation plays a part. I saw a crowd view clip the other day of someone standing on someone's shoulders in the ring, with a group of ~5 stood outside who eventually get jumped on from inside the ring. It's so blatantly obvious that it's a stunt, and there's no psychology there or reason to care even the tiniest amount. Pro wrestling is more than just the moves, and something like that is just stunts. Farmer Burns comes from the era of actual legitimate wrestling where he earned his title, so of course he was going to have opinions on anything but that. I wouldn't expect anything less.
Yeh, there's plenty of bullshit out there. But there's clearly a difference between some people doing stuff in front of a tiny crowd and people like The Young Bucks headlining arenas.

Also, if you think that wrestling was entirely a shoot during that era then I've got a bridge to sell you.

If I were to guess based on looking at the card of All In, they may have been popular but there's bigger names than them to point to as draws. Bubba Ray and Cody Rhodes jump out straight away.
I can't tell if you are serious in saying that Bubba Ray was a bigger draw for All In than The Young Bucks? The success of that show was clearly driven by The Young Bucks, Kenny Omega and Cody. Those three essentially promoted that show through their YouTube stuff. Bubba Ray was part of a prelim battle royal, The Young Bucks were in the main event.

That's interesting. I don't know anything about any of that so I can't comment either way, but it's definitely interesting.
Cornette had a very narrow view of what he wanted to work with. He didn't like Kevin Steen (now Kevin Owens) for example and had him sit out for long periods of time despite him being one of the best and most over guys they had. It's what led to Steen making an entrance eating a banana in reference to Cornette's "unusual" sexual tastes. He eventually had to go along with using Steen because he was so good but for a long time Cornette dragged his heels and insisted on booking around guys who weren't as effective.

I'll never understand the draw of OC. All I see is a one trick pony with nothing else to offer except hurting wrestlers when he wrestles. I hear what you're saying, though.
It's fine not to like it. But I just saw the video of him winning that title match against PAC and clearly what he's doing is connecting with the audience.

I completely agree! Variety is absolutely necessary, and why people like Eddy Guerrero and The Rock were so popular - they could do a range of things. Using extremes is just to make the point, and a 100% serious show would be boring as fuck. But also sometimes when I talk about taking it seriously I mean respecting the business part, which circles back to presenting it as a contest and not a choreographed routine.
I think my point is ultimately that one person's entertainment is another person's choreographed routine. There's not one right way to do wrestling and doing things outside of a narrow definition isn't going to harm the industry as a whole.
 

Naked Lunch

Member
Really cool to see Shawn Spears back - always been a big fan of the dude.
Looks like hes gonna return in a big way - the guy's not getting any younger - its now or never. Had a cool moment with Wardlow in the ring for long time viewers.
Also dropped this great but also sad un-aired segment:
 

Dthomp

Member
Not sure what the former Renee young adds at this point.

Yeah same here, I get she brings a seriousness...but she basically said she won't be announcing. So...shes' an overpaid (Cause I'm sure she doesn't come cheap) backstage interviewer? Like this company needs MORE behind the scenes hold a microphone people. I get that she was likely a cherry on top for the Moxley resign, but just cause you employ far too many wrestlers, doesn't mean you also need to employ far too many interviewers/commentators
 

Soodanim

Member
Yeh it's about suspension of disbelief and making it work. That's kinda my point with all of this. That if it works then it works.

There would be plenty of people who watched wrestling in years past who would look at what The Rock did and say that they can see the wire work and that it's clearly a routine though. If the difference is the audience they drew then let's take Lou Thesz as an example. He worked a much more realistic style than The Rock and once drew an 87 rating. The attitude era's peak at it's best was drawing 5 or 6 percent of the viewing audience, and Thesz drew 87 percent of an audience. So that shits all over any ratings The Rock drew during the peak of The Attitude Era. Do you think that if The Rock did less hokey bullshit, did less elaborate routines and worked a style that looked more legitimate he could have been as over as Lou Thesz? Imagine I took a stance that The Rock is a bad wrestler based on those factors. It's obviously not a fair comparison because the industry and society as a whole has changed. The Bucks are one of the most over acts on a show that is regularly the number one show on cable that night. I just don't get people acting like they aren't effective. As I keep saying, not liking them is totally fine. But at some point you have to at least acknowledge what they do has been effective.
87% of what audience, the one that had 3 channels? That seems disingenuous to use as a statistic. I don't think comparing wrestling in the 50s does anything for the topic at hand, because you're comparing apples to oranges in so many different ways. Even when comparing 2000 to 2020 I'm aware of the differences in the world and media and why it's not just the quality of the shows that is a factor of viewing numbers, so going back that far to me doesn't make a point, it's nothing I can take anything from.
Cornette is a smart guy with an amazing knowledge of the history of the business and a great understanding of what makes things work. I used to listen to his podcast because like you say it's great hearing someone with that kind of knowledge and experience break down why something does or doesn't work. You say people hate Jim because he criticises, but it's more because he's become a caricature of himself. There are wrestlers that he doesn't like for personal reasons, be that due to direct experience with them or because of their style. And that's totally fine. But a few of those wrestlers (most notably Omega and The Young Bucks, although there are others) have only gone on to become bigger and bigger stars. Cornette hated Omega in ROH and it was one thing when that's a guy who wasn't that big a star and in front of the smaller crowds of Cornette era ROH but since then he's gone on to headline stadium shows and been a big difference maker in multiple promotions across the world. And yet Cornette is still talking about him in the same way. He has gone from explaining why things do or don't work to trying to explain why things that work don't actually. His ego and emotional issues won't allow him to just say "fuck it, I hate this shit but it works." And he's got an audience that now just expects him to rip into this stuff. You see it with a lot of critics in other mediums, they get a reputation for tearing into stuff and so their audience builds up around that expectation "I can't wait to hear X DESTROY Y" and that kind of thing. It's also worth pointing out that he doesn't even really believe a lot of the stuff he says, or not at least to the degree he does. He's working a gimmick and taking his opinions and turning the volume up on them. Back when he and Meltzer were still friends it was funny to hear him come on Observer Radio and sound like a different person than when he's on his podcast. It's really a shame to see what he's become because he could be so much better than this.
The only thing I can say is that from what I've listened to it's consistent enough for me. Anything else you'd have to speak to Jim about, because I've never met him
People fixate on single ratings on a week to week basis or what the trend has been like over a short period and try and draw conclusions. The AEW vs WWE stuff has made a lot of people pay more attention to ratings than they used to, but if you don't know what you're looking at then it can be hard to draw definitive conclusions because there are so many factors at play like what else was on that night or what time of year it is. So I see a lot of people jumping to conclusions based on that. But a lot of these people don't really get how ratings work but will just confidently act like they do. They might go up and down but AEW does great numbers overall. I saw people genuinely surprised that someone from WB Discovery was talking about how happy they are with them. But Dynamite is frequently the number one show on the night it airs and delivers great demo numbers. The promotion as a whole is a huge success.
Week to week of course, it'd be silly to focus on that. What about longer term? Battle of the Belts is a recent one. 4 shows over the course of a year, with consistently falling numbers (704, 527, 437, 317k). But to your fair point, we will have to wait until January to see the YoY.
I have no interest in trying to deny that AEW is successful, but downward trends aren't exactly upward trends no matter how you spin it.
Yeh, there's plenty of bullshit out there. But there's clearly a difference between some people doing stuff in front of a tiny crowd and people like The Young Bucks headlining arenas.

Also, if you think that wrestling was entirely a shoot during that era then I've got a bridge to sell you.
I don't know exactly when scripted wrestling came into existence, but I'm sure I read somewhere that when he started it was the era of legit wrestling. Dates seem to range from 1900-1920 so I don't think anyone really knows. Still, it doesn't change anything. Like above, comparing 100 years ago to now is useless to me in all honesty. Farmer Burns would probably also think TV and internet is devil magic, so his opinion on modern wrestling would be useless.
I can't tell if you are serious in saying that Bubba Ray was a bigger draw for All In than The Young Bucks? The success of that show was clearly driven by The Young Bucks, Kenny Omega and Cody. Those three essentially promoted that show through their YouTube stuff. Bubba Ray was part of a prelim battle royal, The Young Bucks were in the main event.
Yeah of course Bubba wasn't the draw he's just a known name (although established names do count for something, even if not *the* draw). But it's clear to me that we're both saying the same thing: they were part of a collective of names.
Cornette had a very narrow view of what he wanted to work with. He didn't like Kevin Steen (now Kevin Owens) for example and had him sit out for long periods of time despite him being one of the best and most over guys they had. It's what led to Steen making an entrance eating a banana in reference to Cornette's "unusual" sexual tastes. He eventually had to go along with using Steen because he was so good but for a long time Cornette dragged his heels and insisted on booking around guys who weren't as effective.
I can't really comment on the idiosyncrasies of his relationship with other wrestlers outside of what's known (quotes saying he knew Steen was good but wanted him to lose weight), but that banana rumour/myth/legend is hilarious! If there really is a tape of it, I don't think its likely to see the light of day at this point. It wouldn't surprise me if it was though, he's definitely very... "open" in the bedroom.
I think my point is ultimately that one person's entertainment is another person's choreographed routine. There's not one right way to do wrestling and doing things outside of a narrow definition isn't going to harm the industry as a whole.
I think despite all we've said, this is still the core of it. You think I have a narrow definition of what wrestling is, but that's not it at all. I said there were good spots in that same match, and I've said you need the variety. I've made reference to non-wrestling things like promos (I think... maybe). I'm saying what I was referencing is outside of all of that. Synchronised routines of swinging partners round running back and forth is as bad as the clip of a dog "pinning" that wrestler that recently did the rounds. This has all been on me and trying to catch me out by assuming that I've never seen anything hokey until the Bucks when I didn't say that, but really I think that saying it is within the realm of wrestling is the harder sell, even if it's ultimately subjective.

As a weird coincidence, some of the stuff we've talked about has come up on JC podcasts after we've talked about them. First someone wrote in to the Drive Thru with the same topics we'd talked about (I wish I saved a time stamp), then through Bray's return the topic of Undertaker and the supernatural stuff came up. What else will we predict in this thread?
 
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