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[Budi]

Welcome to the club!

Been a fan myself since they were called Silicon & Synapse, I have dear memories of Lost Vikings and Rock n Roll Racing. As I do with Warcraft and Diablo. Diablo was my first online game besides Tribes. Wow is the game I've spent most time with from any games I've ever played and I don't think it's even close competition. While looking back, I actually regret some of that time spent. Because it's hundreds of days (literal time) spent in-game, in this one damn game. All the things I could had been doing instead *sigh*. Still, I had fun and made new friends, so I guess it wasn't all time wasted. Starcraft is something I never got into, I preferred Warcraft for the fantasy aesthetic. I stayed active in Hearthstone from the beta to the latest expansion, not a fan of the new quest card mechanics. Heroes of the Storm has replaced Dota 2 for me, it's so much care free than playing Dota 2. And the community seems better also, or atleast in quick play. Which is enough for me, not looking to play it that seriously. Overwatch is a cool game too, but it's a shooter and I've been burnt out on shooters for a long time. Gave it a shot in beta and one of the free weekends.

And even with this history with Blizzard, a certain Gaffer has the gall to call me anti-Blizzard for criticizing OW lootboxes. The nerve on some people. Don't become that guy OP, always remember to wish better from Blizzard since they are capable of listening and improving. That makes them great too.

Oh, and welcome to PC gaming too. Fun times ahead =P

Hold up... have you even tried WoW?

Don't do this! I mean, it's good, it's great but don't do it. There's a chance it will consume you and you will be missing out on other great stuff.

I wish I liked Diablo 3. It's just so damn boringly easy.

Yeah I get what you are saying. I enjoyed the difficulty of inferno at launch. It was also good driving force for me to acquire new loot. When the goal changed to just farm effectively without any challenge to overcome, I gave up on it. Gameplay feels so damn good though.

 

[DevilDog]

Yeah, its why I prefer PC over anything else. Do buy one, you will be blown away at how different everything is. Like jumping onto another platform back in the ps2 days, but you will still keep the overwhelming majority of games.

Whenever people say where are the exclusives they tend to forget about Blizzard and what not.


Mobas are incredibly fun, you should try branching out to lol and dota, don't bother with wow cause you literally won't have any time left. Endless, literally endless amounts of fun gameplay.

Also try indies, I suggest undertale, anything can run it.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Flat-out false, both Overwatch and SC2 have incredibly high skill ceilings.

Overwatch is particularly interesting because of the brilliance of the character design on an arena shooter. Characters like Reinhardt, Winston in the same fighting arena as Soldier76 or Tracer... the recent meta has been incredible to watch and the team and individual skill ceiling is insane.

A lot of people have this giant elitist chip on their shoulder about games like DotA or Quake 3 and I find it amusing because they really live in their own limited bubble where air-movement in Quake is the greatest pinnacle of gaming ever achieved, and therefore everything else is "lol scrub tier for n00bs".

The fact that you unironically call Overwatch an "arena shooter" suggests you aren't familiar enough with the genre to accurately make this call.

Yes, Overwatch has a much lower skill ceiling than nearly every other competitive shooter. There are still things that take skill - map awareness, positioning, etc - but those are also present in other shooters, which at the same time require much more mechanical ability. Let's not forget that some meta heroes literally don't have to aim. Compared to pretty much any MOBA, SC2, CSGO, and other shooters from the past like UT, Tribes, and even TF2, it's not unreasonable to call it a casual game.

 

[Budi]

The fact that you unironically call Overwatch an "arena shooter" suggests you aren't familiar enough with the genre to accurately make this call.

Yes, Overwatch has a much lower skill ceiling than nearly every other competitive shooter. There are still things that take skill - map awareness, positioning, etc - but those are also present in other shooters, which at the same time require much more mechanical ability.

I don't understand why people get so pissed about the fact that Overwatch, Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm are very casual friendly and simpler compared to the competition. It's a strenght too. Hots is the MOBA I recommend to newcomers of the genre, before they would jump into Dota and get flamed. Blizzard is kinda like Nintendo of PC gaming for me. Both make great games for wide audiences, both were a big part of me growing up.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

I don't understand why people get so pissed about the fact that Overwatch, Hearthstone, Heroes of the Storm are very casual friendly and simpler compared to the competition. It's a strenght too. Hots is the MOBA I recommend to newcomers of the genre, before they would jump into Dota and get flamed.

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this. Just that it's the way it is.

It's also the opposite of how Blizzard made games back in the Brood Wars era, so it's understandable that many fans of that era may not be fond of their current design philosophies.

 

[Budi]

I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with this. Just that it's the way it is.

It's also the opposite of how Blizzard made games back in the Brood Wars era, so it's understandable that many fans of that era may not be fond of their current design philosophies.

Yeah I know you aren't, I ment the people who get defensive about it and don't understand to embrace it as a strenght.

 

[IceMarker]

good era:
sc:bw
d2:lod
wc3
wow vanilla - frozen throne

trash era:
sc2
d3
wow cata - warlord of draenor

redemption era:
sc2:lov
d3:ros
wow legion
overwatch

I think that's pretty accurate.

 

[Souldestroyer Reborn]

Yep, they're pretty special.

Minus Diablo 3 pre Reaper of Souls and Mists of Pandaria, everything ha been smash hits.

WoW ate up much more of my time than I'm willing to admit, that I had to stop. Although I did return for Legion because mutha-fuggin-Demon Hunters!

 

[Budi]

Yep, they're pretty special.

Minus Diablo 3 pre Reaper of Souls and Mists of Pandaria, everything ha been smash hits.

Pfffft Mop was great, it gave us pet battles. Are you one of those who couldn't handle cute pandas and wanted something edgier? =P

 

[mas8705]

Honestly, the only game I could think of that Blizzard did on consoles was Starcraft 64 (not counting Lost Vikings, the racing game, the DC games and that beat 'em up). Blizzard have mostly been on PC for a reason. Not to try and say "PC Master Race" since I'm a console gamer myself, but no denying that for most people, Starcraft, Warcraft and Diablo shaped alot of gamer's childhoods when they played on PC.

 

[MasterOfPastures]

They were once a great house now panicking on maintaining their way of revenue that they gained from WoW. The aggressive, skinner box monetization of OW is proof of that.
Younger me would be up in arms due to their own 1debasement... but now, in this world, you gotta make that money.

 

[Hashmal_Bringer_of_Order]

Blizzard are great, i love pretty much all their games. World of Warcraft: Legion is by far my most played game this year.

 

[Atom Heart Mother]

Yep, they're pretty special.

Minus Diablo 3 pre Reaper of Souls and Mists of Pandaria, everything ha been smash hits.

WoW ate up much more of my time than I'm willing to admit, that I had to stop. Although I did return for Legion because mutha-fuggin-Demon Hunters!

hey now. MoP was a great expansion. It had great raids, a simple storyline, and a fun new world to explore. I played it endlessly when it was current. WoD is the shittiest expansion ever made, and Legion isn't too hot.

New Blizzard makes some great games, my only complaint is their handling of Starcraft and the shitty balance of Overwatch. Overwatch was fun but once the meta started shitting up games, I quit. Comp. was the only fun part of OW, quick play is dull.

 

[Q8D3vil]

I like how they changed industry standards with lootboxes.
Doont get me wrong, i dont give a shit about lootboxes, but i much rather have cosmetic items and free maps and character than the other way around.

 

[Budi]

I like how they changed industry standards with lootboxes.
Doont get me wrong, i dont give a shit about lootboxes, but i much rather have cosmetic items and free maps and character than the other way around.

 

[KLoWn]

Minus Diablo 3 pre Reaper of Souls and Mists of Pandaria, everything ha been smash hits.
!

Mists of Pandaria was teh shit.

 

[AnathemicOne]

OP you have catching up to do haha.

Been a Blizzard fan since my introduction of playing WC3 as my first Blizzard game. I loved their catalogue then and I love it now at being 23 atm. They've had their fuck ups over the years (Diablo 3, questionable WoW development) but they always consistently put out quality games.

 

[Blitzhex]

I like how they changed industry standards with lootboxes.
Doont get me wrong, i dont give a shit about lootboxes, but i much rather have cosmetic items and free maps and character than the other way around.

That was valve.

 

[Zemm]

good era:
sc:bw
d2:lod
wc3
wow vanilla - frozen throne

trash era:
sc2
d3
wow cata - warlord of draenor

redemption era:
sc2:lov
d3:ros
wow legion
overwatch

I'd agree with this even down to the expansions.

 

[Diprosalic]

I like how they changed industry standards with lootboxes.
Doont get me wrong, i dont give a shit about lootboxes, but i much rather have cosmetic items and free maps and character than the other way around.

They didn't really but i love them too as i could not give less of a shit about cosmetic items. I don't even bother to open them in the games that have them.

Never understand how people care about skins in a first person shooter.

 

[Q8D3vil]

That was valve.

I knew they were not the first, but companies changed their business model after seeing how blizzard did it with overwatch.

 

[Budi]

I knew they were not the first, but companies changed their business model after seeing how blizzard did it with overwatch.

Mmm..... Valve influenced Blizzard. In lootboxes and the game overall. Who are those that you think have followed Overwatch? And why is it Overwatch that they followed rather than games from Valve. I don't really stay up with multiplayer games that much.

 

[M.J. Doja]

Oh boy do I miss the SC:BW, D2:LOD, and WoW Vanilla-TBC days!

Then again, I get the chance to play OTHER games, something that never happens when hooked on a Blizzard game.

Also, that whole "having a life" thing is cool too!

Pretty crazy that at 32 (my age as well) you never dipped into PC gaming or had any curiosity to check out a Blizz title!

 

[Cels]

yea i'm not sure if this guy is serious or if i'm the ignorant one here

if serious, then which games changed their business models in the past 12 months in response to overwatch...because one overwatch is one year old now

 

[krameriffic]

I knew they were not the first, but companies changed their business model after seeing how blizzard did it with overwatch.

Yeah no. Volvo's been doing it for longer, with more games, since before Overwatch was even a thought in the minds of anybody at Blizzard.

 

[KKRT00]

That was valve.

It is concept taken directly from TCG games.

----

yea i'm not sure if this guy is serious or if i'm the ignorant one here

if serious, then which games changed their business models in the past 12 months in response to overwatch...because one overwatch is one year old now

I personally cant think of one, the concept is old as fuck.

 

[FieryBalrog]

The fact that you unironically call Overwatch an "arena shooter" suggests you aren't familiar enough with the genre to accurately make this call.

Yes, Overwatch has a much lower skill ceiling than nearly every other competitive shooter. There are still things that take skill - map awareness, positioning, etc - but those are also present in other shooters, which at the same time require much more mechanical ability. Let's not forget that some meta heroes literally don't have to aim. Compared to pretty much any MOBA, SC2, CSGO, and other shooters from the past like UT, Tribes, and even TF2, it's not unreasonable to call it a casual game.

Yeah so that's why Koreans are crushing every Western team. Because despite playing super high skilled FPS games for ages, Western teams have somehow managed to get dominated left right and center by Korean teams, often teams with inferior DPS players. (see Lunatic Hai, best team in the world right now, running with a core DPS duo of a Genji one-trick and a decent-at-best hitscan player).

It's almost like... there are other skills involved, in addition to many core FPS skills that do transfer over.

How familiar are you with the OW professional scene? With Apex? Have you read Korean analysis of pro OW play? I have. You make a lot of really simplistic claims that lead me to believe your understanding of high-level OW is pretty lacking.

 

[wild wild rice]

Overwatch is incredible. I decided to check out some more Blizzard games, but Diablo 3 was shite. Not my thing at all.

 

[TheContact]

Blizz has been my favorite developer for as long as I can remember. Between them and Squaresoft I was golden with the games they both made. I really got into blizz when they made diablo 1 and bought every game they released and played them religiously. Vanilla and TBC WoW really just pushed me over the edge. Now I'm addicted to Overwatch.

I still have memories of doing Mephisto runs in d2 before I had to leave for school

 

[Subpar Spatula]

Ever since Wrath of the Lich King patch 3.3 Blizzard has dropped in quality. They've made so many decisions to please as many people as possible that their multiplayer games have this solo feel to them.

Diablo 3 and RoS is a good example of this due to lack of trading, pvp, etc.

I want to say they're a good developer but it's quite clear they're coasting off the old days.

 

[CambriaRising]

I knew they were not the first, but companies changed their business model after seeing how blizzard did it with overwatch.

This didn't happen. Overwatch is only a year old kids.

 

[DrSlek]

Blizzard entered my blacklist after I wasted money on SC2.

 

[Chaos2Frozen]

I haven't touched blizzard ever since they've entered the era of Heathstone, HOTS, and Overwatch.

 

[BashNasty]

I've loved Blizzard since I first played Warcraft II in the mid-90s and they're still by far my favorite developers to this day.

I put over 350 hours into Diablo III before the internet hive-mind declared it good.

 

[Htown]

I tried Blizzard games before, but never really got into one before Hearthstone.

Overwatch seems good too, but I had a frustrating run of matches today so... dunno. Kinda seems like a lot of assholes are jumping on smurf accounts for the free weekend.

 

[MoonFrog]

Hmmm don't think I've ever played a blizzard game. I played "historical" RTS as a kid so the blizzard games never showed up.

Never did WoW. Never did Diablo. Never played any moba

 

[Herodotus]

To me Blizzard is, without a doubt the best game developer right now, I've been a HUGE fan ever since SC1, i don't think i have played a single Blizzard game that i don't like (expansions are another subject).

I think Blizzard really cares about it's reputation and it's customers, and their support is second to none, i mean, D3 is a 5 year old game now, and it still receives frequent updates.

 

[Dreams-Visions]

Blizzards doing really well nowadays but imo they were at the height of their greatness in the early 2000s.

Starcraft Brood War
Diablo 2 Lord of Destruction
Warcraft 3 The Frozen Throne


The holy trinity 🔥 🔥 🔥

the father, son and holy ghost right there boys.

 

[TheRedSnifit]

Yeah so that's why Koreans are crushing every Western team. Because despite playing super high skilled FPS games for ages, Western teams have somehow managed to get dominated left right and center by Korean teams, often teams with inferior DPS players. (see Lunatic Hai, best team in the world right now, running with a core DPS duo of a Genji one-trick and a decent-at-best hitscan player).

You seem to be agreeing with me in that the game has an incredibly low mechanical skill ceiling for an FPS.

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that competitive FPS players in the west flocked to Overwatch. This is inaccurate, as the bulk of western Overwatch do not have any professional experience in the FPS space, and most of their competitive FPS experience comes from decidedly un-hardcore games with undeveloped comp scenes like Shootmania, Firefall, and Brink. These rather ragtag teams are up against teams with years of professional experience from a country that takes esports waaaaaaaaaaaaay more seriously.

It's almost like... there are other skills involved, in addition to many core FPS skills that do transfer over.

How familiar are you with the OW professional scene? With Apex? Have you read Korean analysis of pro OW play? I have. You make a lot of really simplistic claims that lead me to believe your understanding of high-level OW is pretty lacking.

Overwatch is most certainly not the first FPS or MOBA to put a heavy emphasis on intangibles like positioning and map awareness. I would ask you exactly how familiar you are with high-level Counterstrike, Quake, or DotA if you believe that Overwatch demands more of these "intangibles" than them.

I followed up until the Overwatch Open, where almost every high-level match was decided by nanoboosted Reapers spamming each other. I decided there were other FPSs I'd rather be watching.

 

[Bolivar687]

Ever since Wrath of the Lich King patch 3.3 Blizzard has dropped in quality. They've made so many decisions to please as many people as possible that their multiplayer games have this solo feel to them.

Diablo 3 and RoS is a good example of this due to lack of trading, pvp, etc.

I want to say they're a good developer but it's quite clear they're coasting off the old days.

I would say they have had a consistent corporate culture of quality to the present day. But if we're talking mechanical depth and their ability to truly lead in a genre, I agree that their current output is a far cry from their prestige in the early to mid 2000s. I'm glad they've been able to diversify and bring a different perspective to a larger audience on the console scene but their games don't speak to me anymore, there's competitors in every genre that I feel are really pioneering the frontier ahead of Blizzard. I know many die-hard fans who are much more into their brand than I am who also just can't get into their current ouput.

 

[cordy]

Yep. Overwatch made me a Blizzard fan. I remember going through school and having my friends always mention their games and me basically lying about playing them simply so they can stop badgering me about it lol. I can see why they love the studio.

 

[Zizbuka]

Blizzard became shit when they merged with Activision tbh

I know it's cool and edgy to make comments like this, but that's not even close to true. I haven't played WoW in over 5 years, but it's still a very good game. Diablo III is still great, Starcraft II is still great............

We should applaud a dev who stays focused on quality over quantity. If anything, they're the anti-Activision. Pretty amazing that they've been able to kinda keep their independence and focus.

 

[Data West]

legion is either the worst xpack of all time or the second worst

i played cata and wod both more than legion.

 

[superNESjoe]

Its funny because the Blizzard you're coming to love now is really a new Blizzard. They aren't making the same kinds of games that PC gamers fell in love with years ago.

 

[Rickenslacker]

Blizzard was what got me into PC gaming in the early '90s, WarCraft was unlike anything I had seen up to that point, and it had a lot of personality and the map editor just filled my child mind with possibilities, and that only continued with the obsession I had towards StarCraft after that and Diablo II after that. Sadly by the aughts they were almost entirely irrelevant to me once they became the WoW studio, and it breaks my heart to think that WarCraft is essentially dead to me going forward because of how much of it is now entrenched in WoW and how much of that is just completely of no interest to me.

But I am happy to be playing Blizzard games again. I just wish their newer stuff had a bit more bite to it and wasn't so Playskool design oriented in their multiplayer spaces and modern narratives.

 

[A Serious Man]

good era:
sc:bw
d2:lod
wc3
wow vanilla - frozen throne

trash era:
sc2
d3
wow cata - warlord of draenor

redemption era:
sc2:lov
d3:ros
wow legion
overwatch

This is about right, although "good era" should really be called "fucking goddamn legends era" but that's a minor quibble. I was really down on them for quite awhile after WoW went south but they're putting out solid stuff now. I wouldn't say anything they've done recently is inspired or groundbreaking but it's always super polished and worth a look.

 

[Forerunner]

Pretty much all I play are HS and OW. I'm actually downloading D3 atm. I didn't play it that much and I never played RoS. So I want to see how much it has changed. I'm not really into mobas or mmos atm, so I don't bother with WoW and HotS. I didn't enjoy SC2, so I'm just waiting for the remastered to come out. Once Destiny 2 hits Bnet I'll never need anything else.

 

[Renekton]

Ever since Wrath of the Lich King patch 3.3 Blizzard has dropped in quality. They've made so many decisions to please as many people as possible that their multiplayer games have this solo feel to them.

Diablo 3 and RoS is a good example of this due to lack of trading, pvp, etc.

I want to say they're a good developer but it's quite clear they're coasting off the old days.

If you happen to sit in the same dinner table as Jay Wilson and Greg Street, what would you do.

 

[E-flux]

Flat-out false, both Overwatch and SC2 have incredibly high skill ceilings.

Overwatch is particularly interesting because of the brilliance of the character design on an arena shooter. Characters like Reinhardt, Winston in the same fighting arena as Soldier76 or Tracer... the recent meta has been incredible to watch and the team and individual skill ceiling is insane.

A lot of people have this giant elitist chip on their shoulder about games like DotA or Quake 3 and I find it amusing because they really live in their own limited bubble where air-movement in Quake is the greatest pinnacle of gaming ever achieved, and therefore everything else is "lol scrub tier for n00bs".

You do realize that something like Quake is a lot more than just rocket jumping and bunny hopping? It's a lot more about map control than anything else and it takes a shitload of skill to be able to keep in mind all of the timers ticking on the map while trying to harash your opponent trying to gain the upper hand.

Out of the big competitive games i would easily call overwatch the most simple even if the gameplay ends up being an orgy of color and particle effects. It seems like you are thinking a bit too highly of OW in this case, it's not a bad thing if a game doesn't have the highest skill ceiling but calling OW an "incredibly high skill ceiling" is a joke when you compare it to the comp fps titans like counter strike or quake.

 

[FieryBalrog]

You seem to be agreeing with me in that the game has an incredibly low mechanical skill ceiling for an FPS.

You seem to be under the mistaken belief that competitive FPS players in the west flocked to Overwatch.

Competitive TF2 players did in droves. Seagull; Clockwork; Harbleu (all of whom are S level TF2 players, maybe B4nny can be S+) and a huge number of variously competitive folks like all of LG Evils team, etc. Some Quake pros like Rapha. I forget Knoxxx's background but I know it's in competitive FPS.

Now CS is a different story because it has an already huge scene so why would you jump ship anyway?

This is inaccurate, as the bulk of western Overwatch do not have any professional experience in the FPS space, and most of their competitive FPS experience comes from decidedly un-hardcore games with undeveloped comp scenes like Shootmania, Firefall, and Brink. These rather ragtag teams are up against teams with years of professional experience from a country that takes esports waaaaaaaaaaaaay more seriously.

Nope, in fact I would say after listening to lots of interviews with players like Jake, or Surefour, or Harbleu, the bulk of Western OW (at least in terms of "senior talent") comes from TF2. There are some younger kids whose background may be pretty minimal but they are really talented and play just fine with players of the caliber mentioned (e.g. Agilities is 16 years old, Sinatraa is really young I think)

Overwatch is most certainly not the first FPS or MOBA to put a heavy emphasis on intangibles like positioning and map awareness. I would ask you exactly how familiar you are with high-level Counterstrike, Quake, or DotA if you believe that Overwatch demands more of these "intangibles" than them.

Decently familiar with high-level DotA and extremely familiar with high-level Brood War.

Btw, if this becomes a "whose theoretical skill ceiling is higher even though both are unachievable" dick waving contest, then Brood War would still win, since it's still the esport that was (1) the most mechanically and mentally demanding; the level of multitasking required by pro BW is extremely taxing on the brain (2) by far the most demanding of sheer physical dexterity that I'm aware of, and (3) still hasn't been matched in the West in terms of infrastructure as an esport.

So really what's the point? Quake sucks because it's not as demanding as BW? DotA sucks because mechanically, it's a joke compared to Warcraft 3 professional play?

Or maybe this attitude is kinda stupid? I'm literally watching human beings struggle to play perfectly in Overwatch- and not even coming close much of the time- NA Overwatch is a literal joke right now, the team that crushed all of North America got demolished by two of the top Korean teams and lost a map in an embarassing way to a completely unknown team. Koreans don't fuck around in esports. You may not like League of Legends, but it has a HUGE playerbase in NA, EU, China, South America and Southeast Asia. The sheer scale of LoL is on another level.

And Koreans still beat all of them because it's a game that they got into. They liked League of Legends more than DotA for a variety of reasons including historical (DotA 1 was not big in Korea), and moden: Valve fuckups in Korea and LoL being there first with f2p model. It's not because of the magical Korean spirit. It's because the esports infrastructure in Korea is an order of magnitude more developed than any other country. MonteCristo talks with Thooorin about how it's considered, in certain circles, a legit option for poorer kids to get into esports to support family, much like in certain circles of American society, people do consider physical sports worthwhile enough to let their kids do it and try to make income.

And, well, they're getting into Overwatch in a big way. Apex has been a huge success. OW competitive viewing/following in the West is pretty small right now compared to the size of the userbase, and the coming Overwatch League may or may not be a success in the west, but all signs point to it being a success in Korea (and, to a lesser degree, in China).

I followed up until the Overwatch Open, where almost every high-level match was decided by nanoboosted Reapers spamming each other. I decided there were other FPSs I'd rather be watching.

Ok, that meta was terrible. The one following that was "OK", and the current one (since about March) is great. Believe me, I followed it since then as well. The current meta is really nice for such a young game.

You have to remember that esport games never come out in a viable form. They always have a ton of kinks to work out. Why are DotA and CS so good? Because the designers have iterated on the game for 10-15+ years with an eye towards making it a great competitive game. OW didn't even have hero limits when it launched.

Vanilla Starcraft is a fantastic game but it would not have made a good esport. BW at launch still wouldn't really have worked out. It only really became amazing with 1.08 in 2001, and after that, it still took Korean mapmakers years of iteration before map quality really hit a high level, there were a lot of seriously awful maps early on.