F0rneus
Tears in the rain
I read the scene incorrectly. Glad to have been set straight. Possibilities are now endless for the future.
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Hannibal S3 |OT| Man Destroys God. Hannibal Eats Man. Hannibal Inherits The Earth.
- Thread starter TheOddOne
- Start date
I read the scene incorrectly. Glad to have been set straight. Possibilities are now endless for the future.
AuthenticM
Member
Regarding the "fanfiction" label, there is an element of "not professional" that characterizes it. People call a work "fanfiction" when it's done by someone who did it just for fun because he or she is a fan, while not having licensed the rights to whatever from which they are producing. Hannibal is a multi-million dollar production by a bunch of professionals who officially licensed the rights from the original author. It is not fanfiction.
Bobby Roberts
Banned
What dont' they have to do with it, though? Why do they not count? Public perception is why and how things change. So discussing the commonplace perception of what the term "fan-fiction" means is valid, I think.
But this is essentially what you're arguing, while simultaneously suggesting that the fandom of a creator is a key element in what makes the creations good. I don't buy that. Fuller can be a fan all he wants, but it's not his fandom that made the show good, no matter how much other fans enjoy the sense of validation that might come from buying that narrative.
Money isn't the only thing separating Fuller and Yudkowsky, and I don't think it's fair to suggest that's the case, to Fuller especially.
the black pearl
Member
That episode felt like an ending. I'm happy.
I'd say my favorite run of the show was early season 2. But I might be in the minority on that one.
I'd say my favorite run of the show was early season 2. But I might be in the minority on that one.
la la la la la, I can't hear you!
lolololol
Lol
D
Deleted member 325805
Unconfirmed Member
Super sad to see it end 
VistraNorrez
Member
Let's bring Kafka and Van Gogh back into this. There was no public perception of either them during their lives because they made no impression at the time. That doesn't mean their work is less than. And just because public perception changed on their work, doesn't mean their work changed. So public perception does not define something, it just tells you what the era was like. Ultimately, public perception is a reaction, not the cause of something (we could argue that point further. Clearly one can have a reaction to a reaction, but it's beside the point here). People don't just decide one day they like or dislike something. They are shown, over time, the positives and/or negatives of it, and their opinion changes.
First of all, I just threw that last bit on about how an adaption doesn't have to be fanfiction as a possibility. I should have expounded on it, but I decided to just follow it up with a dismissal. That was more of my point. To explain that minor point further, an adaption could be made by people who aren't fans of the original work. It doesn't make sense to me, but it could happen. Which is why I used "I suppose".
I never said Fuller's fandom made his show good. I stressed his importance as an artist. I also stressed he did not originate the Hannibal idea and is playing with someone else's world. To paraphrase your words, the fandom of a creator is the key element in what makes the creation fanfiction. That's all I'm saying. Not sure why it needs to be more complicated than that.
Not sure what the problem is with comparing Fuller and Yudkowsky. They both adapted work from a loving place and radically altered it. Both were also critically well received. Is it the professional/amateur thing again? Once again, Kafka was not a professional writer and Van Gogh was not a professional painter. They are both considered masters. I think the separation of professional and amateur, when it applies to art, is silly. Like I said, you are an amateur until you aren't. Doesn't mean squat to the quality or creativity of a work.So what else is separating Fuller and Yudkowsky? Is it the choice of medium. I guess I should try to find a fanfiction movie or show.
Pretty good ending. I think Season 3 suffered a bit in comparison to the first two seasons possibly due to it being more built around adapted material than before, but it is hard to say if that is really why I didn't like it as much. I also felt the first half of the season turned a few of the show's unique aspects/quirks up to eleven and it felt a little overdone at times perhaps. Still I enjoyed it, just not as much as Seasons 1 and 2.
Despite what I just said about the adapted material part, I would have loved to see Fuller's take on Silence of the Lambs and an original ending to the whole series afterwards like someone in here said was the original plan. I wouldn't mind seeing more if it happens. If not that was a fun ride.
Despite what I just said about the adapted material part, I would have loved to see Fuller's take on Silence of the Lambs and an original ending to the whole series afterwards like someone in here said was the original plan. I wouldn't mind seeing more if it happens. If not that was a fun ride.
CreeperBlocks
Banned
I'm hoping those two work together again
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
I loved the ending, this show did season finales so well. Murder and romance. Hannibal and Will going over the bluffs looked like the ending to one of those cheap grocery store romance novels. The embrace...loved it!
Will and Hannibal teaming up and sharing the kill reminded me of a Godzilla. Using the monster to slay another monster. Definitely one of my favorite moments.
The third season started off a little slower than I would have liked, but it was a thrilling ride once it started moving.
Will and Hannibal teaming up and sharing the kill reminded me of a Godzilla. Using the monster to slay another monster. Definitely one of my favorite moments.
The third season started off a little slower than I would have liked, but it was a thrilling ride once it started moving.
In the face of dropping ratings it's like Fuller decided to make the series even more esoteric and inaccessible to new viewers. Dat stubbornness.
Monocle
Member
Pls explain how this boring show prevented you from watching better and more interesting shows. Brb, wrapping my entire head in a great wreath of tissues to prepare for this tearjerker.
I'm not convinced that Fuller is lying, Dancy is lying, and Mikkelsen is lying every time they affirm their interest in returning to the series. I think they respect their fans enough not to patronize them. Fuller has gone on record that the chances the show will come back are now "below 50/50," but he's still pursuing the possibility of a miniseries or a movie after a year or two's hiatus. I'm inclined to take what he says at face value because he's been consistently open and honest with viewers over the show's whole run.
Monocle
Member
If Hannibal Rising got made into a film and this show got made after Hannibal Rising, anything is possible for the Hannibal franchise.
So... Uh, I've never seen a Hannibal movie, not even Silence of the Lambs, although despite it being revered as one of the finest films of our time, it interests me the least as a massive fan of the Hannibal television show.
How are the movies? Hopkins ones or otherwise, rankings would be cool, too -- if anyone has any strong opinion on the films.
How are the movies? Hopkins ones or otherwise, rankings would be cool, too -- if anyone has any strong opinion on the films.
Grizzlyjin
Supersonic, idiotic, disconnecting, not respecting, who would really ever wanna go and top that
Silence of the Lambs is a classic. Bare minimum you should watch that. The Hannibal film always rubbed me the wrong way, just sorta ridiculous and unsatisfying. I will admit it's worth a watch for Gary Oldman's Mason Verger though.
Manhunter and Red Dragon are both surprisingly decent. I'm a big fan of Red Dragon's version of Will Graham. My ranking would be
Silence of the Lambs >>> Red Dragon > Manhunter > Hannibal > Hannibal Rising
You're going to have deja vu with a lot of those. Season 3 has basically been a remix of Hannibal, Red Dragon/Manhunter, and a tiny bit of Hannibal Rising.
Looking back at this episode, I wonder what the future plans for Chilton are/were. He had this Mason reincarnated thing going on between the disfigurement and extreme resentment of Will & Hannibal. Wanting his skin...Chilton was going to some dark places.
Manhunter = SotL >>>> Red Dragon > Hannibal > Hannibal Rising
D
Deleted member 102362
Unconfirmed Member
Welp, thus ends the greatest love story television has ever told.
If I had one overarching and coherent complaint with the otherwise superb back-half of season 3, outside of a general lack of plausibility (something the show has often struggled with and succumbed to), it was that in some ways it felt like two divergent stories: the tale of Francis Dolarhyde and Reba, the great red dragon and the woman clothed in sun, on the one hand- and on the other, the continued song of Hannibal and Will Graham that we've all been dancing to as an audience from the first episode of the first season. I never felt like the two truly came together as a coherent whole until that final, indelible, superb scene of Will and Hannibal defeating the Dragon together, one of the best and most memorable of the show. Certainly moreso for the fact that it was accompanied by a burst of romantic, dirge-like music in a finale that was otherwise notably silent. (I am probably the only one in the entire world, but that terrifically placed Siouxsie Sioux song put me in mind of the grim and funereal Swans classic Song for Dead Time. Not a bad thing at all for a show like this, really.)
So sure, I can summon up complaints - I think Alana and Margot suffered most from what is so obviously in retrospect two seasons compressed into one, given that even when the former got a respectable amount of screen time compared with prior seasons she still felt like something of a victim of afterthought - but overall, this was an incredible and unforgettable season of what is easily one of the greatest television shows ever made. I am overwhelmed by the finale in part just because I was even lucky enough to witness something of this caliber come to life on a channel like NBC. Bonsoir, everyone.
bone saw.
This is my ranking as well. I really like Red Dragon's straightforward adaptation. I'd watch RD then SOTL.
Monocle
Member
Yep, love it. Cool art.That embrace really is a great lasting image for the story.
Perhaps we'll have dinner again one day.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
So, how was Will able to understand what Frederick said?
I literally had no idea what he was saying. At all.
I literally had no idea what he was saying. At all.
DarkJediKnight
Member
I think sometimes we forget that Will is one of the most brilliant minds walking the earth. The man's IQ is through the roof. He reads people very well, and it's not in the realm of impossibility that he reads Chilton's lips.
Just saw it.
It's hard to say anything that hasn't been said before. And I feel that I don't grasp this show as should/will upon later rewatches. It's too subtle and abstract for me to pick up on the first go. Years later, when I decide to see it all again, maybe then I'll understand everything better. For now, I feel as though I am staring at something great and a little scary, but fascinating and captivating. It has depth that I can't quite reach. I like that, and it first with what the show tries to portray.
I never regarded it as anything resembling a perfect show. It's most obvious fault (The plausibility of the things happening) is ever-present, though I've learned to ignore it. But it's one of the most artistically fascinating shows ever. I hope we see its like again, but if not, the way it ended was perfect.
I feel as though I have only one thing to add to the discussion. What I like is how they added...dignity and pride to the characters here, by giving them a mythological overlay. I discussed before how I feel Mad's Hannibal is truly the alien force that the other movie adaptations had made him out to be. Every other lector was scary and unsettling, but he always felt just like a scary and unsettling guy. The talk of him being evil incarnate was always all talk to me, merely a condition of the other characters deathly fear of him. The TV show, on the other hand, is portrayed truly as an otherworldy being to me. The show gave the same measure of supernatural intensity to its other killer, Dolarhyde. I haven't read the book, so I can't comment and I've yet to watch Manhunter. However, the Dolarhyde of red dragon and failing came off as pathetic to me. Not in a bad way, but he was desperately trying to be the Red Dragon and obviously failing. Here, Dolarhyde was, as many have pointed out, fucking terrifying. The constant winged/tailed appearance, his introduction of convulsive movements, even his harsh voice all conveyed the presence of a beast. It made him feel like a truly worthy foe to the Will and his Wendigo.
It makes me wonder how Fuller would have elevated Buffalo Bill. BB was by far the saddest of the movie's murderers, a guy who hated his own identity and was pathetically trying to shed his identity. Again, he came across as a sad human being to me, most apparent with the infamous lotion scene where he has to scream at the woman to apply it to herself or he'll hose her again. Fuller took a narcissist and insecure shy boy and turned them into the Devil and a Dragon. What would have Buffalo Bill become? One can only dream...
It's hard to say anything that hasn't been said before. And I feel that I don't grasp this show as should/will upon later rewatches. It's too subtle and abstract for me to pick up on the first go. Years later, when I decide to see it all again, maybe then I'll understand everything better. For now, I feel as though I am staring at something great and a little scary, but fascinating and captivating. It has depth that I can't quite reach. I like that, and it first with what the show tries to portray.
I never regarded it as anything resembling a perfect show. It's most obvious fault (The plausibility of the things happening) is ever-present, though I've learned to ignore it. But it's one of the most artistically fascinating shows ever. I hope we see its like again, but if not, the way it ended was perfect.
I feel as though I have only one thing to add to the discussion. What I like is how they added...dignity and pride to the characters here, by giving them a mythological overlay. I discussed before how I feel Mad's Hannibal is truly the alien force that the other movie adaptations had made him out to be. Every other lector was scary and unsettling, but he always felt just like a scary and unsettling guy. The talk of him being evil incarnate was always all talk to me, merely a condition of the other characters deathly fear of him. The TV show, on the other hand, is portrayed truly as an otherworldy being to me. The show gave the same measure of supernatural intensity to its other killer, Dolarhyde. I haven't read the book, so I can't comment and I've yet to watch Manhunter. However, the Dolarhyde of red dragon and failing came off as pathetic to me. Not in a bad way, but he was desperately trying to be the Red Dragon and obviously failing. Here, Dolarhyde was, as many have pointed out, fucking terrifying. The constant winged/tailed appearance, his introduction of convulsive movements, even his harsh voice all conveyed the presence of a beast. It made him feel like a truly worthy foe to the Will and his Wendigo.
It makes me wonder how Fuller would have elevated Buffalo Bill. BB was by far the saddest of the movie's murderers, a guy who hated his own identity and was pathetically trying to shed his identity. Again, he came across as a sad human being to me, most apparent with the infamous lotion scene where he has to scream at the woman to apply it to herself or he'll hose her again. Fuller took a narcissist and insecure shy boy and turned them into the Devil and a Dragon. What would have Buffalo Bill become? One can only dream...
not possible
Thank god you can choose whatever you want to see. Don't go watch a show because you think it's boring. Now, that's weird.
Zoe
Member
What could have been with Silence of the Lambs: http://www.craveonline.com/culture/...uller-describes-silence-lambs-season-hannibal
I do joke that when I say "Netflix" I'm probably watching HBO Go. But whenever I describe the show to someone they fall in love with the concept. "Guy who is empathetic enough he can put himself in a killer's shoes and helps the FBI solve murders. FBI enlists a shrink to ensure guy doesn't become a murderer himself. Shrink is the infamous Hannibal and twists his patients to murder, to endure the madness."
Maybe it's my geographical location, but people I know don't watch anything unless you can stream it.
Shuggananas
Banned
I could, Will probably has subtitles on like I did
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
"Exchange of money" is kind of a brusque passing over of "permission by the original creator and/or their estate"
Because it's the latter that separates Hannibal from Fanfiction. It inherently defends the original work from straying away from the creator's original intent.
That's why "fanfiction" get's a "bad rap". It's a creator's rights issue. A creator has the right to say, "No. My characters and creations will never act in a way I never intended them to in any other media."
Anton Sugar
Member
Rewatched the last two episodes again with my roommate last night, to catch him.
In terms of finales, I think I'd put S2 finale>S3 midseason=S3 finale>S1 finale.
Maybe. I LOVE the S1 finale, so this isn't the easiest thing to rank--it's consistently had great finales, and the S3 midseason "finale" gave the season an amazing jolt. They're also all so different, it's hard to compare them.
Gawd, that moment when Hannibal says that Alana is living on borrowed time and that he spun her gold...damn. One of my favorites in the series, a little peak behind the curtain into how Hannibal's mind works.
Also, I just realized that, for a show that centers on psychological melodrama, all of the action (to my memory) has been shot really well. Jack/Hannibal brawl, Jack/Hannibal rematch, Red Dragon vs Hannigraham, and even old S1 stuff (like the absurd but fun Hannibal vs Tobias fight) was great.
I was able to understand about half of the conversation, but there were some parts at the end I couldn't.
Dammit.
In terms of finales, I think I'd put S2 finale>S3 midseason=S3 finale>S1 finale.
Maybe. I LOVE the S1 finale, so this isn't the easiest thing to rank--it's consistently had great finales, and the S3 midseason "finale" gave the season an amazing jolt. They're also all so different, it's hard to compare them.
Gawd, that moment when Hannibal says that Alana is living on borrowed time and that he spun her gold...damn. One of my favorites in the series, a little peak behind the curtain into how Hannibal's mind works.
Also, I just realized that, for a show that centers on psychological melodrama, all of the action (to my memory) has been shot really well. Jack/Hannibal brawl, Jack/Hannibal rematch, Red Dragon vs Hannigraham, and even old S1 stuff (like the absurd but fun Hannibal vs Tobias fight) was great.
I was able to understand about half of the conversation, but there were some parts at the end I couldn't.
Dammit.
Possibly the best written piece in the series.
Anton Sugar
Member
Agreed. I wonder how much/if it was taken from one of the books--probably not exactly, given that Alana/Margot is a show-only thing.
Shuggananas
Banned
- I love a good finger wagging
- Yes you do
That was the best bruh
- Yes you do
That was the best bruh
The
-Where's Jack?
-In the pantry
exchange in the S2 finale tops anything for me, but I love both of these scenes for the same reason: they're some of the few times where we really see Hannibal drop the mask and show the real devil underneath.
- I love a good finger wagging
- Yes you do
That was the best bruh
The amount of sexual innuendo on that level the show got away with on NBC is as awe-inspiring as the level of graphic violence.
Shuggananas
Banned
If Will hadn't been an idiot he could have killed him solo when D was setting up his camera and shit but instead waited
VistraNorrez
Member
I don't buy that at all. We know Thomas Harris has had no say on Fuller's show. Zero. All we know is Martha De Laurentis has talked to him and he apparently likes the show. He sold the rights years ago and clearly doesn't care about any more adaptations.
I do not understand why people are so hung up on this idea of licensing. It's a matter of money and credit always. You want to make sure you get credit for your ideas (which fan fiction always does, it's kind of essential to getting exposure) and if money is made off of it, you get money too. Fanfiction is free. The artist has created their statement with their original work. If they have more to say, they can participate or adapt themselves. We can look at Game of Thrones or American Gods were the creators are involved in those adaptations.
And the estate argument is so much stranger. Those people have nothing to do with the original work. We can only take their word they are trying to respect what the artists did. We can never know for sure. Some of them often go against the wishes of the artist. Kafka and Douglas Adams requested their unfinished work never be released. Didn't happen. And then we have adaptations of Public Domain works, which require no licensing and frequently have no original artist to even consult.
For all intents and purposes, what Fuller is doing with Hannibal is fan fiction. He wanted to create a backstory that didn't exist within the Hannibal series. He did what all fan fiction writers do and look at the text and extrapolated his own fantasies for the show. He did not have any sort of meetings with Thomas Harris. There is nothing derogatory about this. That hangup is on everyone else. Fuller himself loves fan art for his own show. Fanfiction is more embraced than ever.
BenjaminBirdie
Banned
The conversation kind of stops at the first bolded. In this particular case, Fuller can do whatever he wants because Harris no longer gives a shit. But to say it somehow legitimizes fanfiction seems ludicrous to me. Each instance is, by definition, a case-by-case basis. If you write a story in the Harry Potter universe, you know that Rowling specifically has not given permission for this and thus wants to retain control and/or oversight of those characters.
Second bolded, creators shouldn't have to have "more to say" to keep from other people outside their control from working with their creations.
It's really weird, honestly, to see people have a chip on their shoulder about fanfiction. If you like an original work so much you want to keep writing it, one would imagine you'd have some level of respect for that original work and acknowledge that the story ended and the characters acted as the original writer intended.
Stories aren't just blocks of pieces you can play around with at your leisure. They have arcs; beginnings, middles, and ends. Fanfiction posits this belief that everything the writer included in their works is open to negotiation. That strikes me as phenomenally disrespectful, which is so weird to me, because I'd imagine the last thing a fanfiction writer wants to do is throw shade at their favorite creator.
It's like sneaking into a Frank Lloyd Wright house and taking it apart because you love it so much you want to see exactly how it was built.