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Media Create Sales 5/21 - 5/27
- Thread starter Cheesemeister
- Start date
DayShallCome
Member
jimbo said:
To be honest with you, most casual players that I know do not see a large difference between Wii and 360 stuff graphically. I mean, most of them can see that 360 games look better, but they don't see it as all that much of an improvement. And for 360 and PS3, that is a problem, as better tech is definitely a selling point for them.
People will say that price is an issue, but I think Wii would outsell PS3 and 360 at this point even if the price was much higher.
EDIT:
Koren said:
Yeah, that's another thing. In most cases, algorithmic ingenuity is more important in regards to AI than is high performance CPUs. If I'm writing an algorithm for AI, give me a simple processor with a great branch predictor over Cell any day. Now, I'm not saying that Cell (or 360's CPU) don't have advantages over Wii's CPU, because they are definitely superior. But it seems that people with no understanding of what AI actually is are of the belief that next gen CPUs will automatically make AI noticeably more awesome. I'm not so sure that this will be the case.
no.Hatorade said:
Oblivion's AI could be done 10 years ago on an entry-level PC, it's just that game devs have sucked at AI for a very long time, and consoles were even worse in that regard (hint: brute forcing AIs is not the way to go)
As far as AI goes, Oblivion's isn't impressive at all, really.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
It is (impressive) when you take into account that every single NPC has actions taken into account that potentially affect others in a chain. That's over 500 NPCs in Oblivion that have AI going on continuously.
This will be better shown in the upcoming "Two Worlds" game, according to the devs.
This will be better shown in the upcoming "Two Worlds" game, according to the devs.
Oblivion AI wasn't happening last gen as I doubt any of the system could manage the kinds of tech that was happening all at once. The game was a virtual world with constant simulations maybe a pc could've done it, but not a console. My problem with AI the past two gens is the lack of attention paid to it by devs in favor of physics or graphics. I'm also of the belief that till we have more ram we can't have the AI's we really want.
Honestly, I see the difference between those images. I really, really do. Here's the thing though ... that's not worth $300 to me. Not even ****ing close. I also appreciate that faster, more powerful computer architecture would allow you to expand on what you can do and "innovate". Still, that's not worth $300 to me. I will not buy a videogame console for $600. There's just no damn way.jimbo said:
plagiarize
Banned
physics is eye candy in some games, but fundamental to the experience in others (say Little Big Planet). the question isn't 'could that same game be scaled back to fit on last gen hardware' it should be 'if you scaled it back and put it on last gen hardware would it still stand out from last gen games?'.MasterMFauli said:
and my statement isn't made invalid by the fact that no one as you see it has made such a game *yet*. the fact remains that someone COULD make such a game whether or not someone has.
more power allows for innovations that couldn't be previously done. as i was trying to get at, it doesn't encourage those innovations like the wii's controller encourages innovation, but it certainly allows for them and any developer with the talent who wants to make such a game, absolutely can.
furthermore, this has happened with each generational change in the past, and i hope it continues to happen this generation. i don't see any reason why it won't... you're always going to have developers looking to raise the bar and innovate.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Lack of voice chat is a feature of the Wii. I won't post the video of the 8 year old yelling at his mother about food and shit during some shooter game but let's just say there is theory and reality. Lack of DVD, in my house, with 4 DVD players, isn't really that big of a deal. Looking at it from Sony's perspective, I'm kinda glad there is no DVD. Maybe it got the system under $300. Media features: that stuff is nice but I have a PC. A PC that has lasted 5 years. Being on 40% of the time. Nobody will try that with their 360. All this extra crap being shoved into consoles because the manufacturers want to make PCs is making me sick. People come for the games and the rest is just addition sidebars. Nobody buys a 360 because they can put their pictures on it. They buy it because it has great games. The only additional media crap that ever counted was the PS2 DVD features. And that was purely right place, right time. Everything else, they can throw out and give me a refund.jimbo said:
Gekkonidae
Member
I think the main reason that the Wii is so much hotter than its competition is because it has Wii Sports. The PS3 and 360 have no comparable game that a layperson can immediately look at and say "That's something completely new." That's what this argument boils down to, the PS3 and 360 have superior tech, but the improvements that offers are generally more subtle.
test_account
XP-39C²
Tf53 said:
Dont forget internet surfing and picture/movie viewing (photo channel)
vanguardian1
poor, homeless and tasteless
The Weather/News/Photo channels are primarily meant to interest those who aren't too involved with more advanced technology. It's for those people who would wait to see the forecast on the weather channel or switch to CNN for the news, not those who would go check their computer. Rather than waiting for the news/weather, they can go check it out immediately and not have to wait for the information that they want, plus play a game of stay-at-home golf within seconds if the local forecast don't look too good.
It's simply a point of increasing the usability of the console for those who would ordinarily never consider it.
It's simply a point of increasing the usability of the console for those who would ordinarily never consider it.
plagiarize
Banned
it'd be a very different argument then, because the wii would be a more expensive console and no doubt wouldn't be selling nearly as well.justchris said:
Hcoregamer00
The 'H' stands for hentai.
justchris said:
No because rendering at VGA quality with XBOX 360 power is overkill by a HUGE margin. If the wii was only rendering 480p at the highest it would be a monster with XBOX 360 power.
jimbo said:
Yes, but high pixel resolutions improve graphics, but good graphics can't up the pixel resolutions. And high pixel resolutions can't improve graphics hardware, but good graphics hardware can improve pixel resolutions. And good graphics hardware can't improve the skills of the engineers, but highly skilled engineers can improve graphics hardware. And highly skilled engineers can't improve the quality of a good cup of tea (because they simply have no idea), but a good cup of tea can improve the skills of the engineers for the day (it's true).
It's not graphics OR gameplay that make a good game afterall.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Many Game Boy games seem more advanced than NES games, even with weaker processing power. Why? Evolution of design and improvement of development skills with time, plus non-computational advances like the link cable and more frequent battery backup. Super Mario Land 2 looks and plays much more like Super Mario World than Super Mario Bros. Link's Awakening looks and plays much more like A Link to the Past than The Legend of Zelda for NES.Jahaya said:
Games made for X360 and PS3 now are improved not only by having more capable hardware, but that they're made in 2007 instead of 2002.
The plain text versions I update manually and infrequently; I'll do that and link to them when the new numbers arrive tonight.nli10 said:
Hcoregamer00 said:
No it's not.
I got into an argument a few years back on a few boards because I knew the jump console gamers desired weren't really desirable in hd. Fillrate, Ram, and Storage capacity are still very limited for HD. Think about it xbox games at their level were filling up a dvd and needed storage compression. Now your making games that have 3x requirement in power, but the size of the textures and worlds has blimped up yet the storage capacity is still largely the same. Read the recent interviews on the architecture ms showed again signs of gimping the power for cost. Nice to know the edram wasn't up to proper spec for720p, making those mandates pointless. On top of that lovely to know they ditched an intel solution for multi core crap which is ticking off certain pc devs, it's typical ms anyway. Games would be better across the board in terms of visuals if devs had all the power that is wasted on making these games in hd alone and could apply it to decent amount of aa/af 60fp consitently, better animation, better hdr (FP16 instead FP10), and more easily sustained high polygon environments.
Seeing shader improvements along with physics, that were readily visible since doom3 pc aren't next gen to me. Till consoles reach a 500 million polys environment that are almost fully procedurally generated with true global illumination not going to be impressed. Yes I see improvements, but they aren't anything to write home about. At the very least ms should've built to SM 4 in full instead of settling for SM3 level of power.
The Abominable Snowman
Member
Pretty sure that in Daggerfall the NPCs had daily routines that varied according to what others in the world are doing.El Papa said:
If you were to buy and duplicate a bunch of poisoned apples and sell them to a trade goods store in the Imperial City, for example, you would kill some npcs, and not just those in the imperial city but those who travel to the imperial city.
With all these technical discussions going around...I wonder how low Nintendo would've been able to go with Wii technically and still get the same sales?
Dreamcast or PSP level? Or hell, even PS1 level with some nice texture filters and effects thrown in? And I also wonder how many would've been perfectly OK with that?
I mean, just how important is graphics to people who are buying and enjoying their Wiis mainly for the wiimote controls and new types of games? If people don't care much about graphics, where do you draw the line?
Or was the Wii forever destined to be at least a small step beyond PS2/GC/Xbox just because Nintendo was scared people would confuse it too much with the "old-gen" PS2?
Dreamcast or PSP level? Or hell, even PS1 level with some nice texture filters and effects thrown in? And I also wonder how many would've been perfectly OK with that?
I mean, just how important is graphics to people who are buying and enjoying their Wiis mainly for the wiimote controls and new types of games? If people don't care much about graphics, where do you draw the line?
Or was the Wii forever destined to be at least a small step beyond PS2/GC/Xbox just because Nintendo was scared people would confuse it too much with the "old-gen" PS2?
Hatorade said:
Geez, how many times do we have to go through this again? First of all Oblivion has no AI. What it has are some "smart" monster algorithms that are commonly mistaken as AI. It can't learn from you and it has a predefined, limited set of rules. You think it takes a lot of computational power for monsters to have several strategies like casting spell, switch to melee weapon, run away or chasing you around? Or NPCs to have a few pre-defined paths and say different things under different situations? A well-designed table of rules and conditions can handle that easily. It take a lot of care to have it done right, true, but people who know a thing or two about programming can tell you it's not something that would eat up a lot of powers.
The only thing Oblivion has going for it is the relatively good pathfinding algorithms. Pathfinding does not mean searching through all possible routes to a player pixel by pixel. It means predefining the dungeon data in such a way that the computer can always identify a path from one point to another. Most devs won't bother with this. Any competent computer science student can write a program to do just that. I haven't played previous Elder Scroll games so I don't know how good or bad it was, but obviously it's one of the things Bethesda looked to improve this time around.
andthebeatgoeson
Junior Member
Don't listen to zealots that claim the Wii is a step backward. No one can look at Mario Galaxy and claim it's a step backward. How large a step forward is debatable. What seems more apparent to me is the differentiation Nintendo set up. We have a $600, $500, $479, $400 and $300. All alone, standing by itself is the Wii. Non gimped hardware, not confusing, just swing away and it's yours. Compared to the 360 core, easily found. Graphics look good to casuals and it's a instant score. It's one of the few times Nintendo's conservative wait and see approach paid off. They waited until Sony and MS revealed themselves and may have upped the price since they are in a great position.Kiriku said:
No one would have accepted a step back in graphics. But with their competitors giving consumers a reason to pause, they were set up perfectly to dominate. Sony's price is so high, people hate them and their console. They will never get rid of the ill will that $600 price point generates. MS isn't too far ahead of them. And MS is trying to generate more hatred by ignoring the faulty hardware. And then the Wii is $250. We know it's a little overpriced for what is offered. But MS and Sony makes it look like a ****in steal. It even comes with a game. I continue to assert that Nintendo could not have scripted it better to have Sony and, to some degree, MS fall down this generation. They set Nintendo up so well.
linsivvi said:
You missed my point on me mentioning oblivion ai, I'm being broad about the term AI. I have no intention of getting into a semantic debate over whether it's scripting, alorithimis, or an actual legit AI since I'm not qualified. When I mentioned that aspect of the oblivion engine it was becase the devs themselves had hinted they didn't have the juice to do that last gen. It could be cpu or ram, but they certainly were clear about an xbox's ability to handle that with everything else going on at once. Even from a basic perspective that's believable morrowind choked on xbox in terms of performance I don't see how it could've done the oblivion engine in any respectable form at 30fps. A pc is another matter, but this strictly is a console situation.
Square2005
Banned
FFVIII is from FAmitsuapujanata said:
DQIV is from the book "Game Over"
Mario said:
Just about everything you mention can in fact be done on the Wii and can in fact be done "better" than it was done last generation - even in innovative ways. Can the HD consoles do them even better? Sure. But when it comes to innovation in gameplay, it's not always about doing those things better, it's about doing those things smarter. The Wii controller is a real tangible that can not be faked, unlike just about everything else you mentioned.
JoshuaJSlone
Member
Good example.levious said:
The basic GCN chipset was so available for slight tinkering, reuse of development tools/assets, and backward compatibility that going anything lower would've been inefficient. I don't think Nintendo went with a strategy of "How little can we push the GameCube hardware?", but rather "Assuming we want the processors and RAM to only cost $X and generate Y heat, how much do we need to modify them?"Kiriku said:
If Wii was coming from an all-new player with no older hardware presenting an obvious option, who knows. Just as with improving technology you eventually reach diminishing returns, by slashing technology you hit a point of diminishing savings, though, so I don't imagine anyone would've introduced an all-new Wii-alike with PS1 graphics.
Hatorade said:
Any piece of code, no matter how simple, still uses up CPU time, true. Let's say devs dedicated 90% of the power and memory for the graphical engine and textures, that leaves only 10% for various functions including AI, user input, collision checking, etc. So of course that same 10% on a more power machine would mean more juice.
Does that mean it can't be done on last gen? Not at all. It's just that most devs won't sacrifice the graphics for AI, since most people care about how a game look much more then how the computer reacts, and graphics help sell the game, AI don't (except to the hardcore). Just dedicating 10 more percent of the CPU time on other stuff could allow the game to do a lot more things, but frame rate and graphics or number of objects on screen at once would probably take a hit, and nobody wanted to do that.
Just think about it, how many polygons does the machine have to calculate for each frame? Hundreds of thousands? A Million? How many NPCs are there in oblivion? Considering NPC data are most likely stored as integers, and besides those in your immediate area, and they are only updated once in a while. Calculating these NPC states takes a very small chung of the CPU time.
Kiriku said:
Graphics do matter. The question is, at what point does the difference in graphical capability cease to be worthwhile. A large number of people, while they can see that PS3 & 360 games are 'prettier' and 'sparkier' than Wii games, couldn't really tell you what the difference is. What's more, the difference between Wii->360 is noticeably less than the difference between PS1->PS2. So people wonder what it is exactly they're paying so much money for.
Everyone likes better graphics, but at a certain point, the value of those improved graphics decreases in public perception.
linsivvi said:
Machines even pcs are still in the thousands for polys when you comes to single frame, a second it becomes a few million. Even then why are you shooting the messenger. I can't explain why oblivion is only doable on machine 360/PS3 or better, not that into their work or exact details of the engine. I'm only saying that they didn't feel they could make the game in the same fashion it is now on a system last gen. Me I'm siding with dev and the simple fact the game is already choking the 360 because of an upoptimised code it's quite easy to see why an xbox couldn't do it. Scaling down alone to me signals that there wasn't enough juice to do oblivion last generation on a console.
Notable planned upcoming exclusives for each currently...schuelma said:
Xbox 360
-Ace Combat 6: Fires of Liberation (Bandai Namco)
-Cry-On (AQ Interactive)
-Dead or Alive: Code Cronus (Tecmo)
-Dungeon Explorer (Hudson)
-Eternal Sonata (Bandai Namco)
-Kingdom Under Fire: Circle of Doom (Phantagram)
-Mobile Ops: One Year War (Bandai Namco)
-Ninja Gaiden 2 (Tecmo)
-Project Progressive (Tecmo)
-Raiden IV (Taito)
-Way of the Samurai Online (Spike)
PlayStation 3
-Aquanaut no Kyujitsu: Inner Mind Adventure (ArtDink)
-Coded Arms: Assault (Konami)
-Final Fantasy XIII (Square Enix)
-Final Fantasy Versus XIII (Square Enix)
-Gradius (Konami)
-Imabi Kisou (SEGA)
-Makai Wars (NIS)
-Metal Gear Solid 4: Guns of the Patriots (Konami)
-Monster Hunter 3 (Capcom)
-Ni-Oh (Koei)
-Ninja Gaiden Sigma (Tecmo)
-Project D (Michaelsoft)
-Rengoku: The End of the Century (Hudson)
-Shin Megami Tensei (Atlus)
-Smash Court Tennis 3 (Bandai Namco)
-Super Robot Taisen (Banpresto)
-Tekken 6 (Bandai Namco)
-Wangan Midnight (Bandai Namco)
-Way of the Samurai 3 (Spike)
Wii
-Chocobo's Dungeon: Toki Wasure No Meikyuu (Square Enix)
-Dewey's Adventure (Konami)
-Digimon World (Bandai Namco)
-Dragon Quest Swords: The Masked Queen and the Tower of Mirrors (Square Enix)
-Final Fantasy Crystal Chronicles: The Crystal Bearers (Square Enix)
-Final Furlong (Bandai Namco)
-Ghost Squad (SEGA)
-Go! Go! Minon (Success)
-Hajime no Ippo Revolution (AQ Interactive)
-Harvet Moon: Tree of Happiness (MMV)
-Legend of the River King (MMV)
-Mahou Sensei Negima!? Neo-Pactio Fight!! (MMV)
-Mario & Sonic at the Olympic Games (SEGA)
-Mobile Suit Gundam: MS Sensen 0079 (Bandai Namco)
-My Sims (EA)
-Namco Museum Remix (Namco Bandai)
-NiGHTS: Journey of Dreams (SEGA)
-No More Heroes (MMV)
-Opoona (Koei)
-Project O (MMV)
-Project Rygar (Tecmo)
-Resident Evil: Umbrella Chronicles (Capcom)
-Samurai Slash (Koei)
-SAN-X All-Star Revolution (MTO)
-Shin Chuuka Taisen: Michael to Meimei no Bouken (Star*fish)
-Soul Calibur Legends (Bandai Namco)
-Super Robot Taisen (Banpresto)
-Sword of Legendia (Bandai Namco)
-Turn It Around!! (Taito)
-Zak and Wiki: Quest for Barbaros' Treasure (Capcom)
...of the PS3 games, I think only Smash Court 3, Wangan and the SEGA/Chunosft sound novel were announced this year, the rest were announced back in 2006. I'd also say at least half the PS360 games will go multi, most likely more than that though.
Father_Brain
Banned
MySims for Wii is being developed in the States, jarrod.
Hatorade said:
"AI" routines update the STATE of an NPC, things like where it is currently at, where it's heading, what it is carrying, what's its health, etc. It has nothing to do with the number of polys at all. The things that are choking down the 360 are the graphics. AI is the last thing it needs to worry about.
I am not shooting you down, just trying to shoot down the common misconception that video game "AI" are all so complicated. Hope you won't take it personal. I'm not blaming the devs either, they should indeed dedicate most of the CPU power on graphics, so they will only have leftover cycles for things like AI.
Masklinn said:
You're welcome.
Holy Order Sol
Member
Just where the hell is Accent Core.
Didn't Slash make it to the top 10 the week it was released ?
Didn't Slash make it to the top 10 the week it was released ?
Mithos Yggdrasill
Banned
ziran said:
Bingo. I agree completely. I agree with "Mario" about the point that more power opens lot of possibilities that cannot be done with a console like the Wii, but the problem is that the mass market doesn't want this: the sales are the proof !
Nintendo, simply, has been the most clever of the three constructors: make a machine with low price, low costs, low developing costs and a new approach to gaming that it is not necessary better for the hardcore, but it attact the casual gamer a lot more then a powerful machine. And, they are clearly different from the competitors.
It is a combination of factors that determines the actual success of the Wii, exactly like it is a combination of factors that determined all the problems the PS3 has.
The reality, is that not the gameplay or the graphics are the answer to make a machine a big success: it is the equilibrium between them that do the difference. Has the Wii a revolutionnaly gameplay that attract people of all the ages ? The answer is yes. Is the Wii powerful enough to satisfy people of all ages ? The answer is yes, outside the hardcore.
Is the PS3 powerful enough to satisfy everyone ? Yes. Is the PS3 different in some way so that people notice the difference ? No. And that's one another factor that make the Wii ahead of the PS3 on the market.
Perhaps, we can say that the PS3 is simply ahead of its time. Simple, but clear ! The market is not ready for a so powerful console. I mean: how many thing existed since a lot of time, but they're still not ready for the mass market ? The fotovoltaic panel (Sharp, '60) and the hydrogen car are good examples. The CPUs and GPUs you can buy in a store are a lot lesss powerful then the supercomputers of the ESA or CERN: simply because the normal consumer doesn't need them, for now and the costs are incredible high.
Sony has been too ambitious with the PS3. With the Blu-ray, the CELL, the High Definition, ....they have build a so powerful machine that the consumer cannot afford it and overall, doesn't need it now. Exactly like a hydrogen car is too exclusive now (for fans and for who has money), the PS3 is really the Ferrari of the videogames industry. Masterful, incredible, awesome ! But that almost nodoby will buy.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
And the thing is, *THE MARKET DOESN'T CARE*. No matter how unbelievably sexy the graphics are on the PS3 and 360 in comparison to the Wii, it does not, and will never affect the buying trends of the public in general.jimbo said:
None the less you continue to sit here and argue about it, saying up is down, black is white and the world is flat.
This is a sales thread, not a Wii sucks because the PS3 pushes more polygons thread.
RiskyChris
Banned
jimbo said:
This is the stupidest thing I've ever read.
Though I'll bite. Good gameplay can satisfy shortcomings in graphics and technology.
Grampa Simpson
Banned
And which ones of those would cause the Wii to sell better than it already does?jimbo said:
Moor-Angol
Banned
Eteric Rice said:
Nintendo in Japan never drops game prices as NoA does, if you go in some store you can still find Smash Bros GC at full price...
No "Player's Choice" in Japan
but 5mln for nSMB is reasonable, and i'm start thinking it could become #1, selling more than Pokemon D/P
Moor-Angol
Banned
Tonche said:
20/05/2007 : 5.122.304 (Famitsu)
Since everyone's talking about the specs and Nintendo's direction again, I might as well post my 2 cents, which I posted on another forum.
My analysis on Nintendo's rationale for going the route that they chose.
Ability to reuse GC assets: By making the hardware very similar, they could use the same assets and code and whatnot without too much effort/time/money involved in learning new hardware, architecture and the like.
It's just fricken cheaper for Nintendo: Just going this route would save Nintendo millions on R & D.
Third parties didn't care much: For the past 2 generations, Nintendo was cursed with a lack of third party games. Very few ever bothered to put any serious effort into them, and most were ported to PS2 later anyway. Even after Nintendo revealed the Wii controller, and after all the PR shit that you heard from the big boys, they still weren't going to do anything major for it. So from Nintendo's point of view, you could figure 'hey, these guys probably aren't going to help us AGAIN, so why do we have to make our hardware to fit their needs?". So they thought they may as well cut their losses entirely.
However, 2 things here that I just don't get that don't seem to jive well with my analysis.
-The ridiculously small size
-The small power usage
Isn't it more expensive to shrink something down? Why didn't Nintendo just stay with a bigger design? It just sounds weird to me, because first of all, if Nintendo knew that it would be risky trying to go with GC+ graphics, why would they try and make it weaker, if they had a chance to make it more powerful while keeping the same profit margin? And the small power usage, some have said it's because of Wiiconnect24, but if that's the case, then that means they're really pushing that online thing very hard. But still.
But yeah, just my 2 cents. Feel free to rip apart anything I've gotten wrong.
My analysis on Nintendo's rationale for going the route that they chose.
Ability to reuse GC assets: By making the hardware very similar, they could use the same assets and code and whatnot without too much effort/time/money involved in learning new hardware, architecture and the like.
It's just fricken cheaper for Nintendo: Just going this route would save Nintendo millions on R & D.
Third parties didn't care much: For the past 2 generations, Nintendo was cursed with a lack of third party games. Very few ever bothered to put any serious effort into them, and most were ported to PS2 later anyway. Even after Nintendo revealed the Wii controller, and after all the PR shit that you heard from the big boys, they still weren't going to do anything major for it. So from Nintendo's point of view, you could figure 'hey, these guys probably aren't going to help us AGAIN, so why do we have to make our hardware to fit their needs?". So they thought they may as well cut their losses entirely.
However, 2 things here that I just don't get that don't seem to jive well with my analysis.
-The ridiculously small size
-The small power usage
Isn't it more expensive to shrink something down? Why didn't Nintendo just stay with a bigger design? It just sounds weird to me, because first of all, if Nintendo knew that it would be risky trying to go with GC+ graphics, why would they try and make it weaker, if they had a chance to make it more powerful while keeping the same profit margin? And the small power usage, some have said it's because of Wiiconnect24, but if that's the case, then that means they're really pushing that online thing very hard. But still.
But yeah, just my 2 cents. Feel free to rip apart anything I've gotten wrong.