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[plagiarize]

Hrmm. The losses for Microsoft are about what they make in profit each quarter. Looks like they getting better with all their entertainment products over the last 4 years. Xbox 360 is a money maker so I'm not sure what's still holding down their profits.

to put it simply 'entertainment' contains more than just microsoft's console business. also 'cumulative' is kind of a meaningless statistic when we're talking about divisions.

just because microsoft are below the line doesn't mean they are still losing money. it just means that they haven't offset their earlier losses. so long as the gradient of the graph is positive they're making money and so long as the gradient is negative they're losing money, no matter where they fall on the scale.

it's meaningless because in the years that microsoft lost money, those losses were offset by other profits elsewhere. in otherwords, the losses have all already been paid. it's not like the entertainment division was in the red with a bank, and has to pay that money back. they don't, they were just a division that failed to make money that year for a corporation that still made money overall.

losses don't carry over for a division within a profitable company.

now that entertainment is making microsoft money, they don't care however much their cumulative losses were over the first five or six years.

if Nintendo were losing money, or below the line that would mean a lot more because that's the entire companies bottom line.

also if a division is losing money, while the entire company isn't making money overall, then that's much more important than whether or not that division is 'cumulatively' in the black over the last ten years.

i hope that makes the graph a bit clearer. useful information can be gleamed from it, but we'd be better off with a table of figures rather than a graph, because cumulative doesn't mean anything for a division.

often when people bring up 'Xbox hasn't made microsoft any money yet' they're ignorant of how things actually work and seem to think it has to pay back the losses it already incurred, but it doesn't. microsoft had the spare currency to sink into building that brand, and now it's making them money.

think of the millions they spent as being like disposable income.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Fine, but it sure looked like it. The year has just started and a lot of (3rd party) games can be announced if for instance nintendo lowers the price to 180 dollars/euros and the interest in the console gets renewed somehow. I wouldn't say it's over yet, and that post seems to imply it is.

Right, now you've actually made a point.

I'd say your scenario is very unlikely. First, the Wii is currently $199 dollars; why would a $19 price drop do anything? I think it's pretty much accepted that $40-50 is the minimum price drop increment.

Secondly, the timing on your hypothetical seems unlikely. Games, even modest ones, take at least a year to develop. Any support that is hypothetically being drummed up by Nintendo's actions in 2011 will not manifest until 2012 or 2013. Any games being announced for 2011 are already in development now.

But, assume they are already in development, let's do a survey of publishers:
- Activision; doesn't believe in exclusives (although Goldeneye is obviously something worth making an exception to that policy). Do you see room for another Goldeneye-style exclusive?

- Square Enix / Eidos; On the Square Enix side, short of Dragon Quest X, every internal development team is currently working on a project and none of them are for the Wii. They've just announced a series of titles for 3DS. I think it's possible there could be some token support from the SE side before DQX, but unlikely. On the Eidos side, Crystal Dynamics is working on Tomb Raider which will either be omni-platform or PS360PC. IO Interactive is working on Hitman 5, which will be PS360. The Championship Manager team will continue with that series. Eidos Montreal is on Deus Ex 3 and Thief 4, both of which will be PS360PC. I think Eidos still owns some of Rocksteady, who are mostly owned by WB and are working on Arkham City (PS360PC). There are no Eidos teams who will be able to work on Wii titles.

- EA; has converted their Wii exclusive teams to making HD console titles, has began to port their family friendly titles to PS360 (MySims Sky Heroes being one example of this strategy) Visceral? They're working on several IPs right now, but all PS360. EALA? The Boom Blox team is gone, so that pretty much precludes further Wii titles, although we don't know what they're working on. Montreal? Wii teams dismantled and converted to PS360PC. BioWare? They've got 3 projects, 0 for the Wii. DICE? Mirror's Edge 2, Battlefield 3. That leaves EA Sports, which will release no exclusives and only half their SKUs for the Wii, and whatever the mess that's going on with Criterion and Black Box--IE the next racing game, which will likely be PS360PC, but possibly have a Wii SKU. EA Salt Lake? My Garden 3DS. EA Bright Light? XBLA/PSN for Spare Parts. The Sims Team? Omniplatform. EA Partners? Insomniac's game will be PS360, Respawn's game will be PS360, Crysis 2 from Crytek (and Crytek are elsewhere busy making PC and 360 games), Bulletstorm with Epic Games... I'd include the team at Armature (ex-Retro), but 1) their deal seems to have mysteriously disappeared, and 2) one of the reasons why they supposedly left Retro was a desire to work on other consoles.

- THQ; shut down / converted their most Wii-friendly studios to digital distro studios. All major titles in development, accounting for virtually all of their development resources, are on PS360. Vigil? PS360. Volition? PS360. Montreal? Presumably PS360 but their title won't release for at least two more years. Blue Tongue? Multiplatform. Kaos? PS360. Relic? PC. Juice? XBLA/PSN. Rainbow? Presumably XBLA/PSN. They've got the old Midway San Diego studio, but all of their projects were PS360. The only studio they have that isn't committed to a non-Wii platform is their Australian studio. Edit: I have been reminded that I forgot that uDraw has been very successful for THQ and so we might hope for them to publish some external uDraw titles in 2011. Great catch!

- Ubisoft; major development teams committed to PS360, minor development teams now porting Wii games to PS3 and 360. Will release a port of one of the PC Sherlock Holmes games for Wii. Driver? Multiplatform. Ghost Recon? PS360. Assassin's Creed 3? PS360. From Dust? PSN/XBLA. Child of Eden? PS360. Far Cry 3? PS360. Many previously Wii-exclusive franchises (Your Shape as one example, but the others are casual as well) now PS3/360/Wii. It's possible Rayman Origins will have a Wii SKU although not guaranteed. Just Dance 3 is the best chance--the question is will it be Wii-exclusive or multiplatform?

- Sega; Well, here's a good chance. You could easily see a Wii-exclusive Sonic and perhaps another Monkey Ball (although Monkey Ball 3DS might preclude this). They've got 6 3DS titles slated. Other than that, we know their major titles for the year--Conduit 2 (Wii!), Yakuza 4, Rise of Nightmares, Binary Domain, Aliens: Colonial Marines.

- Bethesda; Never made a Wii game, never will, all studios accounted for.

- Namco; Running headlong away from the Wii. All new games announced for PS360 or just PS3, Tales of Graces (seen to be a Wii killer app for third parties) ported to PS3 where it sold more copies. Next Tales is PS3.

- Atlus; none announced, biggest internal team working on PS360, no good candidates for localization by Atlus USA. Possibility of fourth Wii Trauma game, I guess, but seems unlikely to me.

I've left out Capcom, Konami, Tecmo-Koei, WB, Majesco, LucasArts, and all the piddly ZOO Games-style ultra-budget publishers. I'm sure Majesco will have some Wii exclusives, but whether they fall under the casual-but-not-garbageware or casual-and-garbageware categories will be hard to tell. WB took a Wii exclusive and made it Wii/PS3 last year, I expect that trend to continue. Tecmo-Koei doing the same thing with Samurai Warriors 3. Konami has never given the Wii a meaningful exclusive and the exclusivity on DDR has faded. LucasArts' go-to team for Wii versions (Krome) is now defunct. Capcom has announced a bunch of 3DS support and a bunch of PS360/PSN/XBLA support, I think it's hypothetically possible they could do a new Wii rail shooter, although if you were making a rail shooter, wouldn't it also be on the PS3 at this point?

I'm not saying there won't be a few handfuls of third party Wii titles worth looking into over 2011, but the landscape is pretty locked up and the trend is kind of clearly not working in the Wii's favour.

We also have comments on GAF and off GAF from developers confirming publishers Wii-skepticism. The Renegade Kid guys have confirmed it. On GAF, Mario Wynands (from Sidhe) has confirmed it.

 

[Boney]

I'm confused Stump. Is this to show how hardcore gamers and studios aren't on board on Wii or a ultimate compendium of what publisher is doing what. Because the bit that threw me off was Just Dance 3, because just like with the 360, the right multiplatform title can and will drive software and hardware sales.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

It seems everyone is looking over (or forgetting about) quite possibly the biggest disappointment of the year:

WII PARTY


What the hell happened to this title? It's a part of one the the best selling franchises of all-time (The Wii line), it's almost exactly like Mario Party 8 which sold around 8 million copies, it's constantly in the top 10 in Japan, and finally (but not least) it comes with a Wii REMOTE!

Yet it has failed to chart in it's opening month (November) and Nintendo's Annual "let's break records" month (December) now. Unless it is somehow considered an accessory because it comes with a Wiimote and we just can't see the sales numbers...... this title has HUGELY underperformed.

 

[plagiarize]

It seems everyone is looking over (or forgetting about) quite possibly the biggest disappointment of the year:

WII PARTY


What the hell happened to this title? It's a part of one the the best selling franchises of all-time (The Wii line), it's almost exactly like Mario Party 8 which sold around 8 million copies, it's constantly in the top 10 in Japan, and finally (but not least) it comes with a Wii REMOTE!

Yet it has failed to chart in it's opening month (November) and Nintendo's Annual "let's break records" month (December) now. Unless it is somehow considered an accessory because it comes with a Wiimote and we just can't see the sales numbers...... this title has HUGELY underperformed.

it doesn't come with a wii remote. does that help any?

 

[Shiggy]

It seems everyone is looking over (or forgetting about) quite possibly the biggest disappointment of the year:

WII PARTY


What the hell happened to this title? It's a part of one the the best selling franchises of all-time (The Wii line), it's almost exactly like Mario Party 8 which sold around 8 million copies, it's constantly in the top 10 in Japan, and finally (but not least) it comes with a Wii REMOTE!

Yet it has failed to chart in it's opening month (November) and Nintendo's Annual "let's break records" month (December) now. Unless it is somehow considered an accessory because it comes with a Wiimote and we just can't see the sales numbers...... this title has HUGELY underperformed.

It does not include a Wii Remote in the US and it's overpriced there. In all other territories it's a budget release.

 

[Stumpokapow]

I'm confused Stump. Is this to show how hardcore gamers and studios aren't on board on Wii or a ultimate compendium of what publisher is doing what. Because the bit that threw me off was Just Dance 3, because just like with the 360, the right multiplatform title can and will drive software and hardware sales.

Flow of conversation:
A) "Just Dance 2 and Epic Mickey suggest that third party publishers can do well on the Wii"
B) "Yeah, but they're not going to put anything on the Wii. See stump's list."
- I post my list.
- "Why did you post that list?"
- "See A and B"
- "Yeah, but why did you post that list?"
- "See A and B"
- "Well, I think things are going to change in 2011"
- I post this compendium showing why I feel that's unlikely--because change that starts in 2011 won't be manifest until 2012/2013, and because it's pretty clear the only change that started in 2009/2010 (to be manifest in 2011) was the opposite of what was suggested.

It's not meant to be normative, it's meant to be descriptive. I am not speaking to whether third parties can be successful on the Wii, I am speaking to whether third parties are operating as though they can be successful on the Wii. I am not speaking to whether the Wii can do well without third parties. I am not speaking to Nintendo's first party. I am not giving my opinion on whether the Wii is a good system or not.

Also I wasn't limiting my points to "hardcore" games. I was excluding cynical budgetware "Cletus' Redneck Games" trash, or Activision's port of the terrible Gamecube Pitfall game, or Tonka Real Insectologist Adventures. I wasn't excluding games based on hardcoreness. Just Dance 3 clearly belongs on any list, even though it's certainly not something I'd be playing.

 

[Jokeropia]

I do think it's... interesting that someone seems so eager to harvest comments solely for fanboy gloating, but if it improves his sense of self-worth then that's great I guess.

FYI, it has nothing to do with any sense of self-worth, I was reading the thread anyway and decided to have a bit of fun at your expense considering how eager you were to immediately downplay anything positive said about Epic Mickey.

edit : there must be something wrong though : Nintendo has probably earned a lot more than 2 billions and something with the GB, the NES and the SNES or maybe even the N64 from 1983 onwards.

I see Celine already answered this (as well as the other questions about the graph), but now that you mentioned it, Nintendo does provide financial results since FY/E 1981 on their Investor Relations site, so I might just update the chart to include those.

 

[Baki]

Flow of conversation:
A) "Just Dance 2 and Epic Mickey suggest that third party publishers can do well on the Wii"
B) "Yeah, but they're not going to put anything on the Wii. See stump's list."
- I post my list.
- "Why did you post that list?"
- "See A and B"
- "Yeah, but why did you post that list?"
- "See A and B"
- "Well, I think things are going to change in 2011"
- I post this compendium showing why I feel that's unlikely--because change that starts in 2011 won't be manifest until 2012/2013, and because it's pretty clear the only change that started in 2009/2010 (to be manifest in 2011) was the opposite of what was suggested.

It's not meant to be normative, it's meant to be descriptive. I am not speaking to whether third parties can be successful on the Wii, I am speaking to whether third parties are operating as though they can be successful on the Wii. I am not speaking to whether the Wii can do well without third parties. I am not speaking to Nintendo's first party. I am not giving my opinion on whether the Wii is a good system or not.

If (A) references me. I thought I should point out that I suggested 3rd parties would be crazy to abandon what little Wii support they have in favour of Kinect. I cited Epic Mickey and Just Dance as examples.

 

[Boney]

I see

 

[Skiesofwonder]

It does not include a Wii Remote in the US and it's overpriced there. In all other territories it's a budget release.

Really? I could of sworn I saw it in a case like WSR that comes with the game and a Wiimote for $60 at Wal-Mart......


Still though, it hasn't even charted. Wii Music charted at least two times if I remember correctly and it was priced exactly the same ($50).

 

[wazoo]

Really? I could of sworn I saw it in a case like WSR that comes with the game and a Wiimote for $60 at Wal-Mart......


Still though, it hasn't even charted. Wii Music charted at least two times if I remember correctly and it was priced exactly the same ($50).

Wii party is full price in europe and it is very succesful. It has already passed Wii Music LTD by far. Should be around 5M by now worldwide. This is not WSR, but a failure, no.

 

[onipex]

Right, now you've actually made a point.

I'd say your scenario is very unlikely. First, the Wii is currently $199 dollars; why would a $19 price drop do anything? I think it's pretty much accepted that $40-50 is the minimum price drop increment.

Secondly, the timing on your hypothetical seems unlikely. Games, even modest ones, take at least a year to develop. Any support that is hypothetically being drummed up by Nintendo's actions in 2011 will not manifest until 2012 or 2013. Any games being announced for 2011 are already in development now.

- THQ; shut down / converted their most Wii-friendly studios to digital distro studios. All major titles in development, accounting for virtually all of their development resources, are on PS360. Vigil? PS360. Volition? PS360. Montreal? Presumably PS360 but their title won't release for at least two more years. Blue Tongue? Multiplatform. Kaos? PS360. Relic? PC. Juice? XBLA/PSN. Rainbow? Presumably XBLA/PSN. They've got the old Midway San Diego studio, but all of their projects were PS360. The only studio they have that isn't committed to a non-Wii platform is their Australian studio.

We also have comments on GAF and off GAF from developers confirming publishers Wii-skepticism. The Renegade Kid guys have confirmed it. On GAF, Mario Wynands (from Sidhe) has confirmed it.

THQ did release udraw and it did exceed their projections. I think that is the one thing I didn't see in your post.

 

[wazoo]

If (A) references me. I thought I should point out that I suggested 3rd parties would be crazy to abandon what little Wii support they have in favour of Kinect. I cited Epic Mickey and Just Dance as examples.

The problem is that 3rd parties have already stopped. They can not go back.

2011 will all about 1st party and localization. You may even get Disaster in the US.

 

[Stumpokapow]

THQ did release udraw and it did exceed their projections. I think that is the one thing I didn't see in your post.

That's very true, and I think it's very unlikely that they'll port it to any other platform because Nintendo worked with them on the peripheral. I suspect uDraw will get a bit of support in 2011, though, so I'll edit my assessment to reflect that. Good catch!

 

[Celine]

I see Celine already answered this (as well as the other questions about the graph), but now that you mentioned it, Nintendo does provide financial results since FY/E 1981 on their Investor Relations site, so I might just update the chart to include those.

Yeah, I think that Psychotext started from FY/E 1998 because it was hard to find the income for prior years concerning the Playstation division ( but I believe to have seen them actually so if you need an hand ... ).
Also there is Sega from 1989 to 2001

to put it simply 'entertainment' contains more than just microsoft's console business. also 'cumulative' is kind of a meaningless statistic when we're talking about divisions.

just because microsoft are below the line doesn't mean they are still losing money. it just means that they haven't offset their earlier losses. so long as the gradient of the graph is positive they're making money and so long as the gradient is negative they're losing money, no matter where they fall on the scale.

it's meaningless because in the years that microsoft lost money, those losses were offset by other profits elsewhere. in otherwords, the losses have all already been paid. it's not like the entertainment division was in the red with a bank, and has to pay that money back. they don't, they were just a division that failed to make money that year for a corporation that still made money overall.

losses don't carry over for a division within a profitable company.

now that entertainment is making microsoft money, they don't care however much their cumulative losses were over the first five or six years.

if Nintendo were losing money, or below the line that would mean a lot more because that's the entire companies bottom line.

also if a division is losing money, while the entire company isn't making money overall, then that's much more important than whether or not that division is 'cumulatively' in the black over the last ten years.

i hope that makes the graph a bit clearer. useful information can be gleamed from it, but we'd be better off with a table of figures rather than a graph, because cumulative doesn't mean anything for a division.

often when people bring up 'Xbox hasn't made microsoft any money yet' they're ignorant of how things actually work and seem to think it has to pay back the losses it already incurred, but it doesn't. microsoft had the spare currency to sink into building that brand, and now it's making them money.

think of the millions they spent as being like disposable income.

Absolutely.
Although in MS case ( a company that turn every quarter huge profits and has high cash flow ) the question is if entering the console manufacturing business was the right choice that yield the better return over the investment.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

Wii party is full price in europe and it is very succesful. It has already passed Wii Music LTD by far. Should be around 5M by now worldwide. This is not WSR, but a failure, no.

I'm not saying it is a failure and since this is a NPD thread I'm not talking about Europe (or Japan which it has been really successful in as well). I just can't imagine Nintendo expecting a Wii title not to chart in it's first two months. I know it will have legs but ever other Wii title so far has started out a lot better then this one in America (even Wii Music).


On the other topic: I imagine Epic Mickey, Just Dance, Michael Jackson, and UDraw won't do much for the Wii but will have some sort of an effect on Super Wii's launch. It's shows if you make good (or even mediocre) unique software that is everyone friendly, actually uses the strength of the system, and supported with good advertising then you really can sell a butt-load on Nintendo platforms (DUH!). As for Wii, IMO it's just too late to start creating a quality title and take a risk of exclusively creating it for Wii which could potentially be replaced by it's predecessor late this year (but most likely late NEXT year). Right now you can expect a lot of casual motion titles that are green-lighted at this time to expand across two, if not all three motion platforms. It's just the financially safe thing to do.

Even Junction Point (Creator of Epic Mickey) is working on a Wii/Xbox 360/PS3 A.K.A multi-platform title as we speak. Hell that could potentially even be Epic Mickey 2 for all we know.

 

[Danthrax]

That's very true, and I think it's very unlikely that they'll port it to any other platform because Nintendo worked with them on the peripheral. I suspect uDraw will get a bit of support in 2011, though, so I'll edit my assessment to reflect that. Good catch!

For what it's worth, I believe Sega is releasing House of the Dead Overkill 2 this year, too.


[edit] Also, THQ is releasing de Blob 2. It's multiplatform, but it's at least a high-profile sequel to a well-received Wii exclusive.

 

[Sohter.Nura]

Yeah, I think that Psychotext started from FY/E 1998 because it was hard to find the income for prior years concerning the Playstation division ( but I believe to have seen them actually so if you need an hand ... ).
Also there is Sega from 1989 to 2001


Absolutely.
Although in MS case ( a company that turn every quarter huge profits and has high cash flow ) the question is if entering the console manufacturing business was the right choice that yield the better return over the investment.

Yes it did. Microsoft entered the console business not for return of investment, but more as a counter measure to Sony entering the domestic picture inside people households.

I think Microsoft knew their console business wouldn't return investment for years to come, but they would rather pour money in console business than seeing "Sony" and "Playstation" in millions of people's living rooms.

At the end of the day, I think console business as an investment is not really worth it. It's very risky and one wrong move can make you lose a lot of money.

But from a monopoly perspective it is very interesting because it puts your brand right next to people's televisions.

 

[szaromir]

At the end of the day, I think console business as an investment is not really worth it. It's very risky and one wrong move can make you lose a lot of money

It's not one wrong move that leads you to losses - it's the entire business philosophy of some companies. Nintendo made $18B since the DS launch only producing video games software and hardware, despite making some mistakes of their own.

 

[Vinci]

Both of those assertions are completely false. Of course the Move and Kinect are in direct competition. They are both new motion control systems released at the same time for competing systems. They couldn't possibly be MORE in direct competition than they are.

Well, lets see... Their intentions are different, their functionality is so seemingly different as to be completely unrelatable; no one outside of these forums (ie. the mainstream, the ones who matter) see them as the same at all. Ask them.

They are not in direct competition with one another. It would be closer to say that Move is competing against the Classic Controller or, I don't know, the new Donkey Kong game; Kinect is the only one actively competing with the Wii itself. Yes, business strategy, positioning, and intent matter. Superficially saying, "Well, they both involve moving" is stupid. You cannot remove corporate planning and strategy from decisions, particularly one as vast in ambition as Kinect. We've never seen anything like it in this industry's history. To compare it to Move is crazy.

Again: Check my post history if you think I'm moving goalposts. I have never considered them in direct competition, but when asked which would sell more I would always say Kinect. My only question regarding Kinect was, and still is, how long its momentum can be maintained. That's it.

And believe me, before either accessory came out, at least half the posters on this board thought Move would outsell Kinect over their lifetimes. Some people were even scoffing at the idea that Kinect could even compete with Move. Check the prediction threads on this forum about Move vs Kinect before they came out to see for yourself.. The predictions are hilarious.

you seem to have forgotten Kevin Butler's ads.

And how were these two factors not covered by 'console fanboy wankery'?

 

[Kenka]

Well, lets see... Their intentions are different, their functionality is so seemingly different as to be completely unrelatable; no one outside of these forums (ie. the mainstream, the ones who matter) see them as the same at all. Ask them.

They are not in direct competition with one another. It would be closer to say that Move is competing against the Classic Controller or, I don't know, the new Donkey Kong game; Kinect is the only one actively competing with the Wii itself.

And how were these two factors not covered by 'console fanboy wankery'?

I think you're using the wrong metric.

Microsoft has gained market share in the industry since the introduction of Kinect. Sony has lost shares in this business, trying to emulate the success of the leader.


That's the only thing that matter. Let alone talking about competition, Sony's move was just a bad decision. It was obviously a rip-off tentative and it failed to increase sales of the PS3. It was bad advertisement for the brand. Imagine the poor R&D guys how were asked one day to copy what Nintendo did. Those guys worked on CELL for years. It must have broken their heart.

Imagine you're a Sony exec in March 2011 and you have to face investors that will show you Kinect numbers, how it helped Microsoft to climb in the charts... and your Move numbers in contrast. You may very well leave the gathering and eat your tie. It is that bad.

And let's not talk about PlayStation Network :

http://www.tgdaily.com/games-and-en...sonys-playstation-network-stop-bleeding-money

If someone likes Sony, he/she should stop defending them and should rather shout out loud what the problems actually are. It is the only way to help them get things right and get rid of their stupid pride.

 

[Shiggy]

Wii party is full price in europe and it is very succesful. It has already passed Wii Music LTD by far. Should be around 5M by now worldwide. This is not WSR, but a failure, no.

Wii Party was full price in Europe when it was bundled with a Wii Remote. Since the old remote is no longer produced, the game has become a budget game (without a remote).

 

[Vinci]

I think you're using the wrong metric.

Microsoft has gained market share in the industry since the introduction of Kinect. Sony has lost shares in this business, trying to emulate the success of the leader.


That's the only thing that matter. Let alone talking about competition, Sony's move was just a bad decision. It was obviously a rip-off tentative and it failed to increase sales of the PS3. It was bad advertisement for the brand. Imagine the poor R&D guys how were asked one day to copy what Nintendo did. Those guys worked on CELL for years. It must have broken their heart.

Imagine you're a Sony exec in March 2011 and you have to face investors that will show you Kinect numbers, how it helped Microsoft to climb in the charts... and your Move numbers in contrast. You may very well leave the gathering and eat your tie. It is that bad.

But that's the thing: Sony's intention with Move was completely different from expansion. It wasn't meant to expand their market, it was meant to protect it. Kame-sennin discussed this in a post a few pages back. All Sony's been trying to do, with the Move, with the Kevin Butler ads, is convince their already-fans not to abandon ship. Hell, I would consider Move to be less a response to the Wii and more of a kneejerk response to Kinect. The problem is, they didn't have the vision, the ambition, the funding, or the understanding to a level similar to what MS was bringing to the market with it. So their attempt comes off as utterly ridiculous in retrospect.

 

[Megadragon15]

But that's the thing: Sony's intention with Move was completely different from expansion. It wasn't meant to expand their market, it was meant to protect it. Kame-sennin discussed this in a post a few pages back. All Sony's been trying to do, with the Move, with the Kevin Butler ads, is convince their already-fans not to abandon ship. Hell, I would consider Move to be less a response to the Wii and more of a kneejerk response to Kinect. The problem is, they didn't have the vision, the ambition, the funding, or the understanding to a level similar to what MS was bringing to the market with it. So their attempt comes off as utterly ridiculous in retrospect.

You act like Sony are novices in the video game business. They wanted that Wii pie piece, too. The launch lineup for Move was geared toward that casual crowd.

 

[Skiesofwonder]

But that's the thing: Sony's intention with Move was completely different from expansion. It wasn't meant to expand their market, it was meant to protect it. Kame-sennin discussed this in a post a few pages back. All Sony's been trying to do, with the Move, with the Kevin Butler ads, is convince their already-fans not to abandon ship. Hell, I would consider Move to be less a response to the Wii and more of a kneejerk response to Kinect. The problem is, they didn't have the vision, the ambition, the funding, or the understanding to a level similar to what MS was bringing to the market with it. So their attempt comes off as utterly ridiculous in retrospect.

I really really have a hard time believing that. That's just PR working to make sure they have some kinda of damage-control to fall back on if (and now) that Move hasn't been as successfully as many have hoped and expected it to be.

It's the same thing when Nintendo said Nintendo DS was a third-pillar console and they would still continue the Gameboy-line no matter the outcome of the DS. Six (or so) years later we are getting the 3DS and the Gameboy-line is no where in site.

Sony just happens to be on the opposite side of that outcome.

 

[Psychotext]

Yeah, I think that Psychotext started from FY/E 1998 because it was hard to find the income for prior years concerning the Playstation division ( but I believe to have seen them actually so if you need an hand ... ).

I can't actually remember why now, but that sounds possibly right. It may have been that, or that the older results weren't for the gaming division which was created around that point.

The latter would be the same reason as why I don't update them any more... there's too many other things in the division which make the numbers fairly invalid (especially when they state that the gaming aspect of the division would be making a reasonable profit, even though the whole division isn't).

 

[Kenka]

But that's the thing: Sony's intention with Move was completely different from expansion. It wasn't meant to expand their market, it was meant to protect it. Kame-sennin discussed this in a post a few pages back. All Sony's been trying to do, with the Move, with the Kevin Butler ads, is convince their already-fans not to abandon ship. Hell, I would consider Move to be less a response to the Wii and more of a kneejerk response to Kinect. The problem is, they didn't have the vision, the ambition, the funding, or the understanding to a level similar to what MS was bringing to the market with it. So their attempt comes off as utterly ridiculous in retrospect.

Maybe. I understand that you trigger the conversation on points related to short/long-sighted vision and strategy. But at the end it's all the same. Now, I do respect your insight and truly think that your points make sense.

 

[RSTEIN]

You act like Sony are novices in the video game business.

This generation shows that whoever is making the decisions over there don't know what they're doing.

 

[Old Gimlet Eyes]

But that's the thing: Sony's intention with Move was completely different from expansion. It wasn't meant to expand their market, it was meant to protect it. Kame-sennin discussed this in a post a few pages back. All Sony's been trying to do, with the Move, with the Kevin Butler ads, is convince their already-fans not to abandon ship. Hell, I would consider Move to be less a response to the Wii and more of a kneejerk response to Kinect. The problem is, they didn't have the vision, the ambition, the funding, or the understanding to a level similar to what MS was bringing to the market with it. So their attempt comes off as utterly ridiculous in retrospect.

That doesn't even make sense. Sony is going to spend millions of dollars on Move NOT to expand their market? You have got to be kidding me. A company doesn't spend a ton of money on new products and advertising, only to keep their existing customers.

If Move never existed all of these PS3 owners would just start jumping ship and abandoning something they have spent money on already?

 

[Revolver]

So what I get from this thread is that Move is a bomb and Kinect is the greatest selling piece of kit since the light bulb. So on and so forth. The wife got a Move at Christmas and we're both enjoying it. That's all that matters to me. I wish the standalone controllers would get back in stock. I can't find one anywhere.

 

[Gravijah]

That's all that matters to me.

Then why are you in a sales thread?

 

[duk]

This generation shows that whoever is making the decisions over there don't know what they're doing.

bribg back KK!

 

[Revolver]

Then why are you in a sales thread?

Touché. Curiosity got the better of me.

 

[Megadragon15]

bribg back KK!

Bribe? Bring?

 

[duk]

Bribe? Bring?

bring sorry typing with one finger reaching for laptop while still in bed lol

 

[Shiggy]

Even Junction Point (Creator of Epic Mickey) is working on a Wii/Xbox 360/PS3 A.K.A multi-platform title as we speak. Hell that could potentially even be Epic Mickey 2 for all we know.

Source?

 

[Celine]

I can't actually remember why now, but that sounds possibly right. It may have been that, or that the older results weren't for the gaming division which was created around that point.

Here you can find the operationg income for the GAME division starting from FY/E 1996.
The only problem is FY/E 1995 where there is only the Entertainment division ( if I remember correctly SCE before SCE was part of Sony Music Entertainment).
http://www.sony.net/SonyInfo/IR/financial/fr/historical.html

The latter would be the same reason as why I don't update them any more... there's too many other things in the division which make the numbers fairly invalid (especially when they state that the gaming aspect of the division would be making a reasonable profit, even though the whole division isn't).

Eh, I know. Still a pity.

 

[Dabanton]

So what I get from this thread is that Move is a bomb and Kinect is the greatest selling piece of kit since the light bulb. So on and so forth. The wife got a Move at Christmas and we're both enjoying it. That's all that matters to me. I wish the standalone controllers would get back in stock. I can't find one anywhere.

Like it or not it sales do matter. I have a Move and a Kinect but guess which one i'm more confident will actually be supported well this year.

The software on Move is doing dreadfully that matters to me because if move only software aint doing shit whats the point in anyone else doing thing for it?

 

[TheOddOne]

But that's the thing: Sony's intention with Move was completely different from expansion. It wasn't meant to expand their market, it was meant to protect it. Kame-sennin discussed this in a post a few pages back. All Sony's been trying to do, with the Move, with the Kevin Butler ads, is convince their already-fans not to abandon ship. Hell, I would consider Move to be less a response to the Wii and more of a kneejerk response to Kinect. The problem is, they didn't have the vision, the ambition, the funding, or the understanding to a level similar to what MS was bringing to the market with it. So their attempt comes off as utterly ridiculous in retrospect.

You can't believe this, right? No company is bringing a product on to the market just to keep its current fans content.

 

[Frillen]

It seems everyone is looking over (or forgetting about) quite possibly the biggest disappointment of the year:

WII PARTY


What the hell happened to this title? It's a part of one the the best selling franchises of all-time (The Wii line), it's almost exactly like Mario Party 8 which sold around 8 million copies, it's constantly in the top 10 in Japan, and finally (but not least) it comes with a Wii REMOTE!

Yet it has failed to chart in it's opening month (November) and Nintendo's Annual "let's break records" month (December) now. Unless it is somehow considered an accessory because it comes with a Wiimote and we just can't see the sales numbers...... this title has HUGELY underperformed.

Pretty sure Nintendo has expected the title to sell 5 Million by end of March, which it still most likely will. We have to wait till the quarterly report in a couple of weeks though to know how much it did during the holidays.

 

[Dabanton]

You can't believe this, right? No company is bringing a product on to the market just to keep its current fans content.

It's a bizarre thought for sure.

 

[Saint Gregory]

Stumpokapow, while your post about the current Wii 3rd party situation is pretty much right on the money the only thing I don't see reflected in it (and mabye it's intentional) is the possibility that publishers have begun to move their Wii specific teams into HD development to prepare them for the next Wii system or even outright to begin work on launch games. I seem to remember a while back the same assumptions being made about Japanese DS support shifting to PSP because of the lack of new game announcements when now it's pretty clear that those developers were working on 3DS games.

 

[Nirolak]

Source?

I did some digging and split this off into its own thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=418832

It definitely seems he's right.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Stumpokapow, while your post about the current Wii 3rd party situation is pretty much right on the money the only thing I don't see reflected in it (and mabye it's intentional) is the possibility that publishers have begun to move their Wii specific teams into HD development to prepare them for the next Wii system or even outright to begin work on launch games. I seem to remember a while back the same assumptions being made about Japanese DS support shifting to PSP because of the lack of new game announcements when now it's pretty clear that those developers were working on 3DS games.

I don't care to speculate on when Nintendo would launch a Wii successor, but certainly what you're saying here is a possibility.

 

[Jive Turkey]

bribg back KK!

Why? Krazy Ken was the one who got the bad decision ball a-rollin'!

 

[Kenka]

Poor Ken. He got bashed at Sony when the deal with Nintendo on the Play Station failed and now this.

He gets bashed by GAF (damn you missing smilies)


fake edit :

 

[Saint Gregory]

I don't care to speculate on when Nintendo would launch a Wii successor, but certainly what you're saying here is a possibility.

I don't mean to use that as a distraction from the current situation as it doesn't change the fact the Wii doesn't have a rosy future ahead in terms of 3rd party (and even 1st party as of right now) releases but at least it could be an indication that 3rd parties aren't going to allow themselves to be caught with their pants down two gens in a row.

 

[a Master Ninja]

No company is bringing a product on to the market just to keep its current fans content.

At various points in the 1990's it felt like SEGA did this.

 

[Zoe]

Imagine the poor R&D guys how were asked one day to copy what Nintendo did. Those guys worked on CELL for years. It must have broken their heart.

Move has been in the works since well before the Wii.