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[Baki]

If Sony were going to copy something about motion controls, they probably should have considered the following:

- Software
- Commitment
- Advertising

Whether Sony copied the idea or not is irrelevant - or rather, who the fuck cares. They didn't follow through very well and, in a sales thread, that's the key point. Of all the motion solutions out there, Sony's is probably the best, but they're considered the sideshow in the market.

If I were to rate these 3 criteria against MS with Kinect, it would be:

- Software: About the same as MS
- Commitment: MS was 2 levels above them in this respect ($500M campaign, getting Kinect on Opera, marketing the thing even a year in advance etc...)
- Advertising: Again, MS was definitely a notch above Sony in this respect.

So Sony's mistake was that they were unable to follow through the same way MS did.

 

[apana]

I disagree with that. People still wonder if the 360 has a blu-ray player.

Who are these "people". 360 is kind of trouncing the PS3 right now. The Wii can't even play DVD and is still outpacing the PS2. People clearly want new gaming experiences, that's why they buy a console. You can get a blu ray player for 80 dollars. Sony is going to get nowhere if what they have in the box is the best of what has already been accomplished.

 

[Square Triangle]

Move has and will have more great games, the Kinect has Dance Central..and.

I don't care about marketing, I enjoy gaming.

 

[Nirolak]

Move has and will have more great games, the Kinect has Dance Central..and.

I don't care about marketing, I enjoy gaming.

Sure, but this is a sales thread. The idea is to talk about sales.

 

[quickwhips]

I don't think Microsoft or Sony will be in bad shape launching whenever as long as you can play ps3 and 360 games on their next console. It will help with make the move easier. Especially with COD games. Everyone going to want to make sure that it runs like great on their system.

 

[Gravijah]

Sure, but this is a sales thread. The idea is to talk about sales.

The man enjoys gaming. Why are you trying to take this away from him?!

 

[Lagspike_exe]

If I were to rate these 3 criteria against MS with Kinect, it would be:

- Software: About the same as MS
- Commitment: MS was 2 levels above them in this respect ($500M campaign, getting Kinect on Opera, marketing the thing even a year in advance etc...)
- Advertising: Again, MS was definitely a notch above Sony in this respect.

So Sony's mistake was that they were unable to follow through the same way MS did.

You don't have Oprah in UK, do you?

 

[Papercuts]

Move has and will have more great games, the Kinect has Dance Central..and.

I don't care about marketing, I enjoy gaming.

And no other games, ever. Development for Kinect games in the future have been canceled, but move will have more games, of course.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

If I were to rate these 3 criteria against MS with Kinect, it would be:

- Software: About the same as MS
- Commitment: MS was 2 levels above them in this respect ($500M campaign, getting Kinect on Opera, marketing the thing even a year in advance etc...)
- Advertising: Again, MS was definitely a notch above Sony in this respect.

So Sony's mistake was that they were unable to follow through the same way MS did.

Or the way Nintendo did.

Which is really the crux of the problem, isn't it? Sony wanted that success, but didn't want to expend the money or effort to get it. The Wii didn't succeed because of the oh-so-hot Nintendo branding or a $500 million dollar campaign, it succeeded because Nintendo committed to it, brought out software that showed that commitment, and advertised it smartly.

Sony didn't do any of that. They laid back while the competition took the market twice because they didn't want to risk trying to serve two masters.

More and more, Move looks like a "Fine, here, are you happy now you little fucks?" move and less of a thought-out plan to capture the expanded audience.

 

[Square Triangle]

Sure, but this is a sales thread. The idea is to talk about sales.

I just think the argument over who did what right and wrong in terms of sales is over with. MS proved everyone wrong with the numbers the Kinect has had and Sony can't market for shit in NA. And the idea of the Move replicating the Wii controls will never disappear, so no one is latching onto it and trying it out.

And no other games, ever. Development for Kinect games in the future have been canceled, but move will have more games, of course.

I'm speaking in terms what WE, gamers, know. I'm sure MS will have more down the line but the lack of what the future holds for the sensor other than more hacks is rather disappointing. Give us gamers something to experience that is new and refreshing, not a different take on a wii title already out. =/ I don't want another dancing game, Dance Paradise, and I don't want a rip off Brain Age, Body and Brain (?).

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Move has and will have more great games, the Kinect has Dance Central..and.

I don't care about marketing, I enjoy gaming.

Well, gee, Square Triangle. When you make a thread about yourself and your likes and dislikes, we'll post in that and talk about the various things you enjoy.

Until then, this is an NPD thread, which is about sales.

 

[YoungHav]

Oprah is God. If she brought an Atari Lynx on her show tomorrow it would outsell the DS.

 

[Square Triangle]

Well, gee, Square Triangle. When you make a thread about yourself and your likes and dislikes, we'll post in that and talk about the various things you enjoy.

Until then, this is an NPD thread, which is about sales.

I came across this the wrong way at first =X

 

[ShockingAlberto]

I came across this the wrong way at first =X

Yeah, I apologize. My reply was overly sarcastic.

 

[V_Ben]

The time yearly rosters are most likely to change is when we're near a generational switch though.

For example, say my speculation is right and that the PS4 launches in Fall 2013. Given a two year development cycle, Sony can either launch Uncharted 4 on the PS3 at the exact same time, they can make it a PS4 launch title, or they can give it an extra year and make it the major Fall title for 2014.

The first one heavily distracts from the PS4's launch, the second and third are both helpful to the PS4 instead of the platform they're moving away from.

i.e. "The God of War 2 effect". That game should have launched with the PS3, rather than being the last hurrah of the PS2.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

Actually, Naughty Dog has been quite insistent that they want to make a lot of Uncharted games: http://www.computerandvideogames.com/article.php?id=282318

One interesting note about Guerrilla though is that they do have a new IP, so they could launch that as an early 2013 PS3 title and Killzone 4 as a 2014 PS4 title.

I believe they'll switch to heavily frontloaded launch strategy for PS4. Santa Monica / Polyphony / Naughty Dog in the first year. Sign me up for 2013.

 

[V_Ben]

I believe they'll switch to heavily frontloaded launch strategy for PS4. Santa Monica / Polyphony / Naughty Dog in the first year. Sign me up for 2013.

I hope they do this. It'd be interesting to see a Sony platform with a strong launch lineup. PS3 was... better... than the PS2 launch, but if Sony really come out swinging next gen... it'll get very interesting indeed.

 

[TheOddOne]

I'm speaking in terms what WE, gamers, know. I'm sure MS will have more down the line but the lack of what the future holds for the sensor other than more hacks is rather disappointing. Give us gamers something to experience that is new and refreshing, not a different take on a wii title already out. =/ I don't want another dancing game, Dance Paradise, and I don't want a rip off Brain Age, Body and Brain (?).

Well if I was you I would be on the lookout on how Project Draco, Codename D and Haunt turn out. Big names attached to those projects.

 

[MIMIC]

Most people thought they wouldn't break a million, so it's higher than expected really.

Definitely higher than I expected. I would poke into the prediction thread to get an idea of the general expectation of the board and saw just skimming saw that it was on the lower end. Personally, I didn't think that it would crack a million either (or just barely get there, like around 1.01 million or something).

 

[Square Triangle]

Well if I was you I would be on the lookout on how Project Draco, Codename D and Haunt turn out. Big names attached to those projects.

I love Panzer Dragoon, and totally interested in this but I need to see actual gameplay with a person in front of a kinect to be sold.

 

[Dabanton]

I believe they'll switch to heavily frontloaded launch strategy for PS4. Santa Monica / Polyphony / Naughty Dog in the first year. Sign me up for 2013.

Same thing i'm thinking MS is going to do. I'm fully expecting a Halo game to launch with their new console.

Just imagine that.

 

[Baki]

Or the way Nintendo did.

Which is really the crux of the problem, isn't it? Sony wanted that success, but didn't want to expend the money or effort to get it. The Wii didn't succeed because of the oh-so-hot Nintendo branding or a $500 million dollar campaign, it succeeded because Nintendo committed to it, brought out software that showed that commitment, and advertised it smartly.

Sony didn't do any of that. They laid back while the competition took the market twice because they didn't want to risk trying to serve two masters.

More and more, Move looks like a "Fine, here, are you happy now you little fucks?" move and less of a thought-out plan to capture the expanded audience.

I completely agree.

Sony didn't have anywhere near the level of commitment MS did.

MS spent an entire year building up hype for Kinect. Not only that, but they were willing to put themselves in jeopardy both from a branding AND financial perspective. Which is quite interesting considering the amount of scrutiny the Entertainment division was receiving from the shareholders at the time. Kinect really was an all or nothing move.

While with Sony, they were half-in and half-out at the same time. They spent a respectable amount of marketing dollars on MOVE but not in necessarily the right places and not in the same magnitude as Kinect. (However this is more of a scrutiny of SCEA and SCEJ rather than SCEE which did a reasonable job on MOVE)

I think the greatest example of that is the MOVE PS3 bundle. The price of entry of the product was clearly outside of the markets reach. There is a reason why even the MS $399 Kinect bundle is readily available.

You don't have Oprah in UK, do you?

We get US airings of Opera.

 

[Meus Renaissance]

Sony's in-house developers will deliver the games, but the better question is whether Sony have learnt enough about their online strategy. I haven't owned a PS3 since 2008 but I remember using Home only a few times. I read an article back then at the interest in it was heavily front-loaded. It's a shame really because it was an amazing concept

 

[Barry Lightning]

lucky for us, sony will be releasing psp2 this year to further fragment their attention and resources.

 

[GarthVaderUK]

Same thing i'm thinking MS is going to do. I'm fully expecting a Halo game to launch with their new console.

Just imagine that.

I'm imagining fans fighting over limited launch stock, utter chaos!

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Sony's in-house developers will deliver the games

I'm not so sure. They are probably going to make games that are Move compatible, but I don't see Sony taking the risk in making a big game that says "This is why you need to buy the Move." There's more money to be had in letting everyone that has a Dualshock 3 play it than limiting it to Move owners or, well, people who don't hate motion controls.

Sony isn't willing to be that bold with a game. If Uncharted 3 were Move only, the entirety of GAF would scream out at once, but you can bet Move sales would spike.

 

[ItWasMeantToBe19]

Uncharted 3 doesn't even support the Move. Sony won't tell their developers what to do which is why it's pointless for them to continue to make peripherals (And arguably handhelds).

 

[plagiarize]

Uncharted 3 doesn't even support the Move. Sony won't tell their developers what to do which is why it's pointless for them to continue to make peripherals (And arguably handhelds).

Nintendo aren't going to make developers use the 3D on the 3DS either.

you don't have to force developers to use a peripheral (or a feature) if you make peripherals (or features) that developers want to use.

and, an awful lot of developers on PS3 ARE using the move. one particular game NOT using it doesn't mean anything.

most developers on 360 aren't making Kinect games.

 

[Dabanton]

I'm imagining fans fighting over limited launch stock, utter chaos!

It would be.

But a new Halo on launch hardware would be just to much of an opportunity to pass up.

 

[Celsior]

Uncharted 3 doesn't even support the Move. Sony won't tell their developers what to do which is why it's pointless for them to continue to make peripherals (And arguably handhelds).

Well that is pretty stupid, third parties will not even bother if they are the ones left to sell the peripheral for Sony. More developers are more willing to develop for something once it userbase is their.

Same reason why there are very few WM+ games since Nintendo hasn't expanded its base yet.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

The absolute smartest thing for Microsoft to do would be to launch with a new Call of Duty while all the lesser systems still got versions a week later.

It would require ridiculous coordination and appeasement with/of Activision, but the stores would be bloodbaths to get them.

 

[Truespeed]

Uncharted 3 doesn't even support the Move. Sony won't tell their developers what to do which is why it's pointless for them to continue to make peripherals (And arguably handhelds).

Sony shouldn't be telling their developers what to do.

 

[Celsior]

Sony shouldn't be telling their developers what to do.

Developers:We will take your money but you have no say on what happens on the project.
Sony:yeah fuck off

 

[TheOddOne]

The absolute smartest thing for Microsoft to do would be to launch with a new Call of Duty while all the lesser systems still got versions a week later.

It would require ridiculous coordination and appeasement with/of Activision, but the stores would be bloodbaths to get them.

I'm suprised that MS has not created its own COD title.

 

[RSTEIN]

MS spent an entire year building up hype for Kinect. Not only that, but they were willing to put themselves in jeopardy both from a branding AND financial perspective.

jeopardy? Hmm... nope.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Sony shouldn't be telling their developers what to do.

Yes they absolutely should if Sony wants to do more than be the video game industry's arthouse darling.

They run a business. All the "oh my god the dogbirdthing from The Last Guardian looks truly alive GAMING IS ART" fetishists in the world can not sustain the PS3 alone.

 

[apana]

Yes they absolutely should if Sony wants to do more than be the video game industry's arthouse darling.

They run a business. All the "oh my god the dogbirdthing from The Last Guardian looks truly alive GAMING IS ART" fetishists in the world can not sustain the PS3 alone.

Easy there buddy.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Easy there buddy.

I still kind of seethe from one of those Last Guardian threads where someone took a picture of Ueda and the dogthing on the TV behind him and said "He is looking at his master and thanking him for his creation" or something like that.

Like, I think a part of my mind actually exploded reading that.

It is the same reaction I would have reading a Dan Brown novel.

 

[Dunlop]

Oprah is God. If she brought an Atari Lynx on her show tomorrow it would outsell the DS.

woah there, the Atari Lynx was fuck awesome for it's time

 

[Four_Chamber]

I still kind of seethe from one of those Last Guardian threads where someone took a picture of Ueda and the dogthing on the TV behind him and said "He is looking at his master and thanking him for his creation" or something like that.

Like, I think a part of my mind actually exploded reading that.

It is the same reaction I would have reading a Dan Brown novel.

That's pretty frickin hilarious

On topic though, I'm interested to know how Sony plans on marketing the Move in the upcoming year to tr to make itself relevant in the motion gaming market. Will the inclusion of Move support in SOCOM, Killzone, etc be enough? I personally don't think so but we'll find out soon enough.

 

[V_Ben]

That's pretty frickin hilarious

On topic though, I'm interested to know how Sony plans on marketing the Move in the upcoming year to tr to make itself relevant in the motion gaming market. Will the inclusion of Move support in SOCOM, Killzone, etc be enough? I personally don't think so but we'll find out soon enough.

I don't think that move will ever set any sales charts ablaze, but it'll continue to do decently for itself, but it'll never do anything more than that.

 

[Sydle]

That's pretty frickin hilarious

On topic though, I'm interested to know how Sony plans on marketing the Move in the upcoming year to tr to make itself relevant in the motion gaming market. Will the inclusion of Move support in SOCOM, Killzone, etc be enough? I personally don't think so but we'll find out soon enough.

The core audience already on PS3 will probably eat it up, but I can't see that bringing in the Kinect/Wii audience.

I hope Sony have some Move-exclusive games in development.

 

[Opiate]

Yes they absolutely should if Sony wants to do more than be the video game industry's arthouse darling.

They run a business. All the "oh my god the dogbirdthing from The Last Guardian looks truly alive GAMING IS ART" fetishists in the world can not sustain the PS3 alone.

It's not even a stance I'd consider moral. Or, rather, even if you were to say, "I do not care about business interests, I care about what is intellectually or morally right," I would still say he's wrong.

Sony corporation is often providing these studios with tens of millions of dollars to produce these projects. It allows these companies to have large scale advertising campaigns on release, create new technologies, and realize teams of hundreds of employees, instead of a couple dozen. If Sony (or any company) puts forward millions upon millions of dollars for a project, then it seems absolutely immoral to insist that they have no say in the production. Instead, I recognize two moral choices:

1) Accept a major publishers' gigantic sacks of money, hire lots more staff, get lots more advertising, but then also accept that publishers will want to have some say in the creation process.

2) Do not accept a major publishers' gigantic sacks of money. Do not hire more staff. Go it alone, and create a much smaller, less expensive product. This almost certainly means giving up the "AAA blockbuster" ambitions, but that's your choice. The upside is that you get to decide how to create the product yourself.

What I do not accept as moral is accepting a publishers' enormous resources and then telling them to butt out once you have their money.

The problem with the industry is not publishers, per se. The problem is that it costs so much money to create a game on modern home consoles that publishers aren't optional, they're mandatory. The second choice I outlined above is essentially a nonexistent one if you want a major retail release on the PS3 (or 360).

And this drive toward higher budgets and big, "blockbuster" releases is one that is driven both by Publishers (certainly Activision and EA have openly stated that they are seeking that business model) but also by developers (very prominent developers like Naughty Dog or Infinity Ward or Bungie clearly are pushing for that exact same ethos).

 

[apana]

I still kind of seethe from one of those Last Guardian threads where someone took a picture of Ueda and the dogthing on the TV behind him and said "He is looking at his master and thanking him for his creation" or something like that.

Like, I think a part of my mind actually exploded reading that.

It is the same reaction I would have reading a Dan Brown novel.

This picture is so full of life, Trico really seems to be a living creature, looking and admiring his creator.

God bless you Travado. The misguided will soon see the error of their ways.

 

[apana]

It's not even a stance I'd consider moral. Or, rather, even if you were to say, "I do not care about business interests, I care about what is intellectually or morally right," I would still say he's wrong.

Sony corporation is often providing these studios with tens of millions of dollars to produce these projects. It allows these companies to have large scale advertising campaigns on release, create new technologies, and realize teams of hundreds of employees, instead of a couple dozen. If Sony (or any company) puts forward millions upon millions of dollars for a project, then it seems absolutely immoral to insist that they have no say in the production. Instead, I recognize two moral choices:

1) Accept a major publishers' gigantic sacks of money, hire lots more staff, get lots more advertising, but then also accept that publishers will want to have some say in the creation process.

2) Do not accept a major publishers' gigantic sacks of money. Do not hire more staff. Go it alone, and create a much smaller, less expensive product. This almost certainly means giving up the "AAA blockbuster" ambitions, but that's your choice. The upside is that you get to decide how to create the product yourself.

What I do not accept as moral is accepting a publishers' enormous resources and then telling them to butt out once you have their money.

The problem with the industry is not publishers, per se. The problem is that it costs so much money to create a game on modern home consoles that publishers aren't optional, they're mandatory. The second choice I outlined above is essentially a nonexistent one if you want a major retail release on the PS3 (or 360).

And this drive toward higher budgets and big, "blockbuster" releases is one that is driven both by Publishers (certainly Activision and EA have openly stated that they are seeking that business model) but also by developers (very prominent developers like Naughty Dog or Infinity Ward or Bungie clearly are pushing for that exact same ethos).

What is right is a matter of perspective. Besides money is not the only way to measure value, people aslo enter a business to pursue their creative/artistic interests. Many in Sony care about that. I call that a "higher" form of economics.

 

[Opiate]

What is right is a matter of perspective.

Well if we're going to reduce this to absolute moral relativism then lets not criticize people for running through the streets naked stealing from everyone. Or we can accept that this is an absurdly reductionist position, and admit that reasonable people can come to reasonable consensus on a lot of moral issues. Stealing (while streaking!) is considered wrong by most people. I'd also think that most people believe it's immoral to take a gigantic wad of money from someone and then tell them to butt out when they ask to guide how you spend it.

Besides money is not the only way to measure value, people aslo enter a business to pursue their creative/artistic interests. Many in Sony care about that. I call that a "higher" form of economics.

It isn't that I necessarily disagree. It's that I think many people fall back on this trope when they aren't successful in business. I.e. company X beats me, so I think to myself, "I kept true to my artistic spirit, while they trounced me with ruthless business practices. Curse this capitalist ethos!" When I frame it this way, even if I've had my butt kicked economically, they are the true losers.

I am not at all convinced -- personally -- that Sony is particularly or uniquely "artistic." I can see that they try to sell themselves that way because it behooves them to do so, though.

 

[Cipherr]

God bless you Travado. The misguided will soon see the error of their ways.

Holy fucking LOL!

 

[Stumpokapow]

What is right is a matter of perspective. Besides money is not the only way to measure value, people aslo enter a business to pursue their creative/artistic interests. Many in Sony care about that. I call that a "higher" form of economics.

that works for private businesses

not for public ones where the shareholders don't like executives doing interpretive dance over burn piles of $100 bills

 

[Dash Kappei]

Poor Ken. (damn you missing smilies)


fake edit :

What's the deal again for the missing smilies? I remember such a thing happening before, is this time final?

 

[AdventureRacing]

Q3, I believe you mean. Since we're operating on FYs here. Oct-Dec is Q3 for Sony.

I think this seems impossible to people, but it's entirely plausible that the PS3 outsold the 360 worldwide last quarter (Oct-Dec). I wouldn't be surprised if it went the other way, either, but I don't think people realize just how regional the 360 is. It's a very US/UK centric phenomenon. However, if you were gonna pick two territories to win, those would be they: I suppose if I had to put rough odds on it, I'd say 60/40 chance the 360 outsells the PS3 this quarter.

The question is how much is the PS3 outselling the 360 by in Europe. We know that the 360 is outselling the PS3 in the UK by a fair amount. We also know that the PS3 only outsold the 360 by around 250K for the year in france. I would say after taking those 2 regions into account they would be about even.

That's a large chunk of the market already. The other regions sony is dominating but you are looking at 60% or less of the total European market.

Look at this months NPD chart. Developers would be crazy, (and I mean absolutely batshit insane) to abandon the Wii in favour of Kinect.

They can't abandon the wii when they don't support it now. I also think taht your post would lead developers to the same shitty situation there in now. Kinect looks like its the next hot item and it is also selling quite a bit of software despite only just launching.

The developers who get on board now are the ones who will reap the benefits. I'm not saying everyone should move all their projects to kinect but i think it would be silly to ignore it altogether.