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Denis Dyack in 1up yours. NeoGAF is "hurting society," justifies having it shut down
- Thread starter Rlan
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DeebBlue be careful what you wish for. If the mods were stricter, I'm sure it wouldn't be long before you were gone. You do after all have a knack for bashing PS3 exclusives and bringing Halo 3 in to every fucking thread. Many consider you what you do trolling (note, I use the term fanboy, everyone has opinions and preferences).
I think what people need to realise is, GAF in many ways ushers elements of cyber culture as a whole. And part of this culture, is with posters showing stern bluntness in opinions, and having a pretty dark satirical sense of humour. People like to have a laugh. And honestly, if Dyack gets offended by GIF's of bad animation in Too Human, or images of him with a tear hanging from his eye (especially after everything he's said and done) he probably should quit posting on forums, or on the internet full stop. GAF is nothing especially unique. GAF just happens to be very popular, and it's popular for a reason. Because it works, and people enjoy it as it is, hence why they (and you DeepBlue) come back for more.
I think what people need to realise is, GAF in many ways ushers elements of cyber culture as a whole. And part of this culture, is with posters showing stern bluntness in opinions, and having a pretty dark satirical sense of humour. People like to have a laugh. And honestly, if Dyack gets offended by GIF's of bad animation in Too Human, or images of him with a tear hanging from his eye (especially after everything he's said and done) he probably should quit posting on forums, or on the internet full stop. GAF is nothing especially unique. GAF just happens to be very popular, and it's popular for a reason. Because it works, and people enjoy it as it is, hence why they (and you DeepBlue) come back for more.
firehawk12
Subete no aware
avatar299 said:
I guess I haven't really been here much so I can really say anything about the modding here, but another place I post at had a mod give himself a warning because he trolled another user. That's going the extra step.
I wonder if everything would have happened the same way if the overall census of Too Human was positive. Would Denis Dyack take GAF and other message boards to task if they were overly positive about a game they haven't played? Would Denis be upset at GAF moderators who ban anyone being critical of Too Human and posted anything less than positive?
I believe Denis wouldn't even bring it to this level if everyone was very positive about the game even if they never played it.
I think Denis is really his own worst enemy at this point and doing more to hurt Silicon Knight's game, Too Human than any message board or preview. When David Jaffe created God of War he didn't think of a trilogy or themes about Greek mythology and changing the way we play games, Jaffe just cared about making a good game, he didn't know it would spawn such a story and following. Dyack on the other hand, he making Too Human more than everything and everything we as gamers have ever played. I don't think all of this talk really is helping the game any.
I believe Denis wouldn't even bring it to this level if everyone was very positive about the game even if they never played it.
I think Denis is really his own worst enemy at this point and doing more to hurt Silicon Knight's game, Too Human than any message board or preview. When David Jaffe created God of War he didn't think of a trilogy or themes about Greek mythology and changing the way we play games, Jaffe just cared about making a good game, he didn't know it would spawn such a story and following. Dyack on the other hand, he making Too Human more than everything and everything we as gamers have ever played. I don't think all of this talk really is helping the game any.
Deepblue said:
Oh what the fuck ever. Who are YOU to come to THIS site and tell mod's how THEY should run it? If they wanted to make a site called "Cluster fuck of gifs on bad games" It's THEIR decision, there are no laws and obligations set forth when they do this. If they set rules on their own site, and SOMETIMES break them - be freaking glad it happens once in a blue moon. Do you think the legal system is perfect? Do you think large corporations are perfect? Why hold up a freaking enthusiast forum to your righteous standards?
And ONTO THE FREAKING GAME - Animations look TERRIBAD, this is my opinion, and I am stating it as such - did I say animations in the whole game suck? Nope - the ones that the PR reps wanted me to see (the ones they chose to fucking represent their game) are terrible. That mixed in with other negative elements (2 player online only co-op, 10 hour campaign mode, talk of weak philosophical involvement in the story and terribad cutscenes from what I've seen) make me not "for" this game.|
And apparently I am not allowed to look at review sites and other peoples opinions who've PLAYED these games to make a judgment either? Would a demo suffice? Or no, is a demo no longer a proper representation of what the WHOLE game has to offer? BULLSHIT. If reviews came out that I trusted said "Man, I know its got some negative press, but I'm going to have to give this game a 9 out of 10" my interest would spark - and what the fuck is wrong with that?
In the end, people need to get off their damn high horses.
behem0th x
Banned
Denis says mentioning that people are making assumptions about the game without having played it... Are we not supposed to discuss the vids that his company released? Are we not supposed to take into account what people who have played and beat the game have to say? Hey... how about this. Remember back in 2007 when Denis said there would be a demo released on XBL... wtf happened with that? I'd gladly play the game and then judge it myself, if the game is as good and competant as he said, why the hell isn't there a demo? Even the developer diaries he releases are no help... they're filled with complete fluff, he speaks of great things, but you don't see any of that in the actual game according to anyone that has played it... then it cuts off into that Goblin Man BS... btw, calling the game a trilogy before it even has the chance to be just cheapens the game IMO, especially seeing as how the story isn't really vitol the Diablo-esque gameplay games and probably will serve as more of a distraction than anything. You picked the wrong genre of games to try what you envisioned.
AzureNightmare
Banned
You know, this isn't just any videogame forum, its Neo-GAF, successor of the greatest videogame forum that ever existed, and you know what? I damn well think this place has only gotten better since the days of the original GAF forums. This is the single largest gathering of developers, journalists, and gamers on the internet, bar none. Neo-GAF won't be dying anytime soon whether you or Dyack like it or not, and from my perspective, things are only getting better. Thusly your opinion is rendered invalid, along with any "evidence" you might have.JordoftheDead said:
Xenon
Member
I finally listened to the 1up yours podcast.
I now understand why Too Human looks the way it does. Too Human could have looked much better if SK had out-sourced the cut scenes but Denis is against out-sourcing. Its a choice he has made. I can understand it, and in some ways even respect it. But it was his choice, and his to live with. He can not have it both ways. Its like the generic food company complaining about people buying foods with all the fancy labels or Jennifer Connelly bitching about loosing a role to a women with bigger breasts.
As far as people judging Too human before playing it, it happens with EVERYTHING else in life. People make judgments without full knowledge on food, clothing, movies, cars, homes, and thousands of other things including people. What makes Too Human worth some special consideration?
I still think all this intellectual BS is Denis's mind trying to get out of the corner it painted itself into.
I now understand why Too Human looks the way it does. Too Human could have looked much better if SK had out-sourced the cut scenes but Denis is against out-sourcing. Its a choice he has made. I can understand it, and in some ways even respect it. But it was his choice, and his to live with. He can not have it both ways. Its like the generic food company complaining about people buying foods with all the fancy labels or Jennifer Connelly bitching about loosing a role to a women with bigger breasts.
As far as people judging Too human before playing it, it happens with EVERYTHING else in life. People make judgments without full knowledge on food, clothing, movies, cars, homes, and thousands of other things including people. What makes Too Human worth some special consideration?
I still think all this intellectual BS is Denis's mind trying to get out of the corner it painted itself into.
HallucinatingElvis
Banned
avatar299 said:
no reasont to lie just to prove a point
Rocket Punch
Member
Xenon said:
because it's his baby and he is intolerant to other people's opinions when he doesn't share them. he clearly thinks very highly of himself but also seems to suffer from a martyr complex and a bit of a psychotic streak.
It's the same bullshit that started with Deus Ex: Invisible War. They totally fucked up the release of the PC demo by not just having a demo of a bad game, but they released it with the Xbox settings as the default, so it played like a mushy mess.behem0th x said:
Rather than try and fix it, Spector just issued a statement that it's a demo and you shouldn't judge the final game off of the demo.
From then on, nearly all games had that statement due to the backlash DX:IW got. But it means NOTHING. It's like adding a disclaimer on a movie trailers that say not to decide on watching the movie based off of the trailer.
DevelopmentArrested
Banned
nib95 said:
Amen, about time someone called his sad act out.
fighterpops
Member
why didnt he just state that he was not happy with the moderation of neogaf period.
All that talk of scientism and reciprosity was garbage and very hypocritical, his whole rant on 1upyours to me seemed to be the perfect example of what he stated scientism to be.
And all that talk about the dangerous nature of reciprosity on the internet was totally one sided, there are so many great things that could be said about the internet as a form of communicating, MBs being one of them!
Please dont change Neogaf, which IMO is one of the great new phenomena's of the gaming industry
from a long time lurker
I will post more when i get my hdtv + xbox or ps3... one day...
All that talk of scientism and reciprosity was garbage and very hypocritical, his whole rant on 1upyours to me seemed to be the perfect example of what he stated scientism to be.
And all that talk about the dangerous nature of reciprosity on the internet was totally one sided, there are so many great things that could be said about the internet as a form of communicating, MBs being one of them!
Please dont change Neogaf, which IMO is one of the great new phenomena's of the gaming industry
from a long time lurker
I will post more when i get my hdtv + xbox or ps3... one day...
PistolGrip
sex vacation in Guam
Seriously though, the number one reason why people come to GAF is because it's moderated heavily and people who break the rules learn fast. Its one of the most civil places on the internet devoted to gaming. Its an older audience with many smart individuals who really know games. It's the reason why many developers and journalist lurk here.
I think what hurst Dyack the most, is that one of the most influential, smartest forums out there is bashing his game. Most who complain about the game give their reasons though.
Dyack should learn to take some constructive criticism instead of rationalizing everything that makes him feel bad into some big argument about what's wrong with that type of group in society (first journalism now GAF). In other words making excuses for everything to protect his ego.
I think what hurst Dyack the most, is that one of the most influential, smartest forums out there is bashing his game. Most who complain about the game give their reasons though.
Dyack should learn to take some constructive criticism instead of rationalizing everything that makes him feel bad into some big argument about what's wrong with that type of group in society (first journalism now GAF). In other words making excuses for everything to protect his ego.
sevenchaos
Banned
Just finished. I think Denis brings up some good points.
Maybe he does go too far one way. But GAF goes too far the other way. We should all just meet in the middle so we can place each others hands in each others back pockets.
Maybe he does go too far one way. But GAF goes too far the other way. We should all just meet in the middle so we can place each others hands in each others back pockets.
Iaido Sword
Banned
No, we're fine.sevenchaos said:
He's not an expert on GAF, but we're an expert on him.
He makes himself into a damn book for crying out loud.
TheBlackLodge
Member
Totally agreed. However you would then have to point out that 90% of the crap spouted is not constructive but rather flame bait personal attacks and the usual unsupported BS that masquerades as anonymous personal opinion (tm).
PistolGrip said:
I totally agree - don't know about whether or not it's an ego protection thing. I think he just loves his game more than the average developer loves his product - on the 1Up show you can really see how proud he is about Too Human and how much he enjoys playing and talking about it. That's why the criticism must hurt even more.
My problem with Dyack is that from the three longer "conversations" I was able to listen in on thanks to 1UP, I never once got the impression that you can actually have a real discussion with the guy despite him being nice and polite.
PistolGrip said:
"most civil places on the internet devoted to gaming"
The internet is a scary fucking place if that is true. People come to Gaf because there are a lot of insightful people and also people that are directly in the industry. Most threads here turn into fanboy wars just like any other place so you need to extract the meaningful posts from the 30 pages of shit that surround them. Just the TH topic shows this to be the case.There are some great mods here and also some asshats with their own biases, theyre just regular people like us and to my knowlege they don't get paid so we can cut them some slack.
I also think Denis is talking out of his ass. he doesn't deserve the blind hatred he gets from Gaf, but he shouldn't be praised either
Can't help but notice he never mentioned the bet for charity when discussing the "90%" issue. No one on 1UP brought it up either. Guess that wuold have looked bad. I can't believe they just gave him free reign to advertise his game and bitch about people not liking it for an hour. It's like the opposite of Hsu's Moore interview.
Rapping Granny
Banned
Nolan. said:
If he only payed this much attension to his game...
Jeez guys,
Despite how the final game turns out, this game will forever be remembered for Denis' incessant whining about everything - his publisher, the media, online forums, his engine. He's let his ego become bigger than the game itself, and it's a disservice to everyone else on the project.
I'm still buying Too Human, but sorry Denis, MGS should've put a gag order on you two years ago.
Despite how the final game turns out, this game will forever be remembered for Denis' incessant whining about everything - his publisher, the media, online forums, his engine. He's let his ego become bigger than the game itself, and it's a disservice to everyone else on the project.
I'm still buying Too Human, but sorry Denis, MGS should've put a gag order on you two years ago.
Mr.Squirrel
Tom
I haven't really followed the game much, but I remember when I first saw it I thought it looked pretty corny. It just didn't look that good or interesting to me. I don't know who Dyack is, but if his feelings are getting hurt over a message board, then maybe it's time for him to stop going there...
Choke on the Magic
Banned
lttp! GAF must have really hurt Dyacks feelings.:lol
Woo-Fu
Banned
Tom Penny said:
Game looks like it could be entertaining. Most of the complaints I have seen revolve around two other issues: lackluster animation and the reduction of co-op to just two players.
I'm sure if they fix both of those issues over the next month they will please many people.
and monkeys might fly from my ass
i listened to the podcast at work today and in my opinion he had some good points. i'm not trying to defend the game because i don't care about it. I'm talking about the influence of the internet on some people like this dude who stopped posting after he got owned by dyack.
on the other hand you can say this dude was just a real big pussy because in the end - it's just some written stuff on the internet.
it's a difficult topic
on the other hand you can say this dude was just a real big pussy because in the end - it's just some written stuff on the internet.
it's a difficult topic
Woo-Fu
Banned
fartblast said:
Lots of things. When people were critical of them, I'll tell you what I didn't do:
1. I didn't blame the media for creating an industry where it is sometimes necessary to show work in progress.
2. I didn't blame Internet Forums for the lukewarm reception my product continues to receive from enthusiast press.
This stopped being about Too Human a long time ago...
heliosRAzi
Banned
Blablurn said:i listened to the podcast at work today and in my opinion he had some good points. i'm not trying to defend the game because i don't care about it. I'm talking about the influence of the internet on some people like this dude who stopped posting after he got owned by dyack.
on the other hand you can say this dude was just a real big pussy because in the end - it's just some written stuff on the internet.
it's a difficult topic
Um... that dude didn't leave for months after he got owned. In fact, he's posting in this very thread.
And the internet can fuck up a person's life, but it usually happens when said person is acting stupid.
Woo-Fu said:
Your points have some validity in that he should be above this and let the PR department do their job. That said, half of the last TH thread was a bunch of retards daring Denis to come back so he can be "owned" again.
All of these people should have been banned by the mods, you have people from inside the industry writing on your forums (you don't neeed to like them, but have a real fucking debate with them).
You let shit like that persist and will the insiders that Gaf used to have keep writing here out of fear it could hurt the sales of their product? Over time if this keeps up Gaf will just be another fanboy site like so many others.
I think that GAF is one of the better places on the interwebs for comparative analysis and data gathering, especially about games.
I am absolutely positive that there are people here who will love Too Human to pieces as well as there are those who will hate it intensely. But both parties add up to a genius confrontation and conflict that elaborates on so many aspects and facets of each and every game that it results in one of the best and harshest critical analysis available.
I like reading EDGE and some other game review sources, but GAF is feet firmly on the ground while totally bonkers. How can something this insane be hurting society, when the society at large does not care at all? Even more, since when does society care about details and thorough evaluation of stuff like MGS4 (one of the greater threads of late)? Casual gamers don't come here, it is too hardcore for them anyhow.
When GAF is shut down, I will be a very, very sad panda.
I am absolutely positive that there are people here who will love Too Human to pieces as well as there are those who will hate it intensely. But both parties add up to a genius confrontation and conflict that elaborates on so many aspects and facets of each and every game that it results in one of the best and harshest critical analysis available.
I like reading EDGE and some other game review sources, but GAF is feet firmly on the ground while totally bonkers. How can something this insane be hurting society, when the society at large does not care at all? Even more, since when does society care about details and thorough evaluation of stuff like MGS4 (one of the greater threads of late)? Casual gamers don't come here, it is too hardcore for them anyhow.
When GAF is shut down, I will be a very, very sad panda.
Dunlop said:
Normally I don't care about people saying stuff like this but -really- half? Maybe more like... 1/15th? If even that?
And all of WHAT people Dunlop? Give me an example. I seriously did not see very many - people keep saying that "Most people" "90%" "over half" of people were just there to insult and maim the thread with no purpose. Is someone saying "Lol, those animations are terrible" under the 'no purpose' category? Cause to me that's just someone stating their opinion. Someone saying something like "Dyack has a stupid face" - THAT would be no purpose.
Again... why are people telling the mods HOW to run Neogaf? It's like.... they think Neogaf has an obligation to anyone in particular - it does not. I think the mods want this place to still stay a hub of information and insight, and also keep dev's interested in this place to. Does that mean BANNING everyone who is vocal about their dislike of Dyack's game?
beelzebozo
Jealous Bastard
poor kittonwy. i didn't know his ego was so bruised. is there no proverbial band-aid for the injury we gaffers inflict upon one another?
Rocket Punch
Member
Dunlop said:
When you have a developer coming into a hostile environment (by his perception) and basically taunting members to take sides and inciting the furor even more, I'd say he's got it coming. Why should anyone be immune to ridicule then they so willingly draw it on themselves? Do you think we'd be talking about all of this if he didn't insist on bringing it up everytime he has an issue with people's opinions?
PistolGrip
sex vacation in Guam
He will be invited to the Too Human Launch party which is cool for a story Denis sort of made up to prove his point. Not too shaby if you ask me.beelzebozo said:
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