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[Dunlop]

Normally I don't care about people saying stuff like this but -really- half? Maybe more like... 1/15th? If even that?

And all of WHAT people Dunlop? Give me an example. I seriously did not see very many - people keep saying that "Most people" "90%" "over half" of people were just there to insult and maim the thread with no purpose. Is someone saying "Lol, those animations are terrible" under the 'no purpose' category? Cause to me that's just someone stating their opinion. Someone saying something like "Dyack has a stupid face" - THAT would be no purpose.

yes the half was an exageration, next time I'll take out my calculator. Here's from one page:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321977&page=24

"Hi Denis, i know you’re reading through this thread and that you're probably contemplating suicide right now. All is not lost. Your game can be saved. Granted, it's a long shot, but i'm sure we can come to some sort of arrangement. Check it..."

"10 years, 10 fucking years of money wasting and this is the final result, a failure. Time and time again Nintendo has been right in some of the decisions they make..."

"Why hasn't Dyack shown up in this thread yet? I want him to come in here and puhwn all of us. Who's with me?...."

I couldn't give a rats ass about TH at the moment, I'll rent it. But allowing the insiders to be openly attacked like this is a shame which is the point I'm stressing, GAF has an advantage that people like CliffyB will write here. I garaunty that will stop if they think it will hurt the bottom line of the product they are pushing.

 

[Rocket Punch]

oh please, people love spectacles, that's just human nature. denis excels at providing it abundantly and regularly. are people to turn a blind eye to it. who else do we have to make exceptions for?

when someone reduces themselves to a caricature character, it's not other people's doing. you do it to yourself.

 

[sun-drop]

just finished hearing this tonight on the way home.

pretty interesting topic for discussion i thought - but then again maybe over done.

major credit to garnet for his balance, maybe playing devils advocate like he tends to do but the guy came across as the voice of reason here imo.

i do think dyack has some what of a point ..online bullying is bad news ..teens these days on bebo etc topping them selves after humliation en mass etc, txt bullying, it's the sad world we live in. And yes maybe gaf mods do have to keep a eye on things ...but i think they do really. And over mod the place and you sanitize it .. and then it's not gaf.

i think pretty much the whole issue does blois down to dyack taking personal offense to an attack on something he's been working on, and the GIFS.

Too Human, what ever ..i think it was a 'very human' response to what he felt was a form of online bullying. And sure maybe fair enough..the grey area is that he is a public figure in the promo biz .. much like jeff bell ..so this becomes a grey area. Do they have the same rights as gaf member #5678 ? ...can they sue? ... or are they expected to take it on the chin because they are getting paid to be in those situations.

And the nature of there role ... well .. some times they warrant the extra attention ... i mean look at that tool exposed in the COD4 thread

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=325753


i think Denis while raising a potentially interesting legal point..is living in a fantasy land here a bit really. much like ryan payton wanting to lock all the worlds reviewers in a cabin out in the woods for a few mths away from any bias impacting influences in order to have 'pure' review scores.

as shane would say, it's nice to want things.

but harden up .... if your in the public eye, you may end up the subject of a letterman top ten list, your game may get good and bad scores, you may get flamed if you post a thread under your own name.


but all that said ... it's still cool these guys show up here, have the balls to post in the 1st place, and that why we love the place and that's what makes it's relevant.

LC

 

[Kinitari]

yes the half was an exageration, next time I'll take out my calculator. Here's from one page:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=321977&page=24

"Hi Denis, i know you’re reading through this thread and that you're probably contemplating suicide right now. All is not lost. Your game can be saved. Granted, it's a long shot, but i'm sure we can come to some sort of arrangement. Check it..."

"10 years, 10 fucking years of money wasting and this is the final result, a failure. Time and time again Nintendo has been right in some of the decisions they make..."

"Why hasn't Dyack shown up in this thread yet? I want him to come in here and puhwn all of us. Who's with me?...."

I couldn't give a rats ass about TH at the moment, I'll rent it. But allowing the insiders to be openly attacked like this is a shame which is the point I'm stressing, GAF has an advantage that people like CliffyB will write here. I garaunty that will stop if they think it will hurt the bottom line of the product they are pushing.

Dude, like I said - I know it was there - but that is literally a 35+ page thread - I actually LOOKED at that very same page and thought "this is the page where I see most of the bullshit".

My entire point it was EASILY the minority of people being douche's - VERY VERY few of the nearly 2000 posts were people being completely useless - my point is, I do not expect NON PAID admins to be able to siphon through ALL that all the time and decide who to and to not ban - I am POSITIVE there were probably people in that thread who deserved to be banned, but it would be akin to picking out needles in haystacks. My frustration is with people implying that it was near god damn everyone doing it.

I also get that you want insiders to keep posting here - and they probably still will, they won't be scared away by a few of the riff raff here and there saying pointless stuff.

PS. Even though I think those people you quoted are being douche's - I don't think any of the quotes you gave me are deserving of bans - they were not contributing constructively yes - but they did not make any personal attacks on Dyack.

 

[PistolGrip]

I couldn't give a rats ass about TH at the moment, I'll rent it. But allowing the insiders to be openly attacked like this is a shame which is the point I'm stressing, GAF has an advantage that people like CliffyB will write here. I garaunty that will stop if they think it will hurt the bottom line of the product they are pushing.

So by your logic, any developer who post here is automatically protected and his game will not longer be judged. Gaffers will have to stay quiet when seeing the worst animation this gen.

Not only that the people laughing at the 10 years of development got warnings from a mod so it kind of disproves your point.

 

[pr0cs]

So by your logic, any developer who post here is automatically protected and his game will not longer be judged. Gaffers will have to stay quiet when seeing the worst animation this gen.

I think devs should be given the benefit of the doubt, especially if their game isn't even released yet.
It's one of the few things that sets GAF apart from "Gaming Forum #12123", the off-chance that a developer or someone related to a game will comment on some of the questions not answered by the seemingly endless preview parade written by the gaming media.
It was really cool when the developer from COD4 piped in before the game was released and talked about the differences between the PS3 and 360 versions of the game and quelled the comments that graphically they were different.

It would have sucked if instantly he was belittled, called fat, told his game and work sucked "because I say so", even if the game wasn't out yet.

 

[Dunlop]

So by your logic, any developer who post here is automatically protected and his game will not longer be judged. Gaffers will have to stay quiet when seeing the worst animation this gen.

Not only that the people laughing at the 10 years of development got warnings from a mod so it kind of disproves your point.

To an extent, fucking right they should be protected. Rational debate and critics should be welcomed but anyone who steps out of that bubble should be tar and feathered. I mean c'mon in the first example I posted the dude told Denis that he was probably contemplating suicide, how the fuck does that not get a banning?

These people are what puts GAF on the map, otherwise it would just be another GamePro.

 

[~Devil Trigger~]

I think devs should be given the benefit of the doubt, especially if their game isn't even released yet.
It's one of the few things that sets GAF apart from "Gaming Forum #12123", the off-chance that a developer or someone related to a game will comment on some of the questions not answered by the seemingly endless preview parade written by the gaming media.
It was really cool when the developer from COD4 piped in before the game was released and talked about the differences between the PS3 and 360 versions of the game and quelled the comments that graphically they were different.

It would have sucked if instantly he was belittled, called fat, told his game and work sucked "because I say so", even if the game wasn't out yet.

so what are we doing here?

if we cant talk about games that are not out yet, in a positive or negative way, based on media and previews provided by the Publishers, studios and the press?

 

[Kinitari]

To an extent, fucking right they should be protected. Rational debate and critics should be welcomed but anyone who steps out of that bubble should be tar and feathered. I mean c'mon in the first example I posted the dude told Denis that he was probably contemplating suicide, how the fuck does that not get a banning?

These people are what puts GAF on the map, otherwise it would just be another GamePro.

Oh screw that - you're saying now that anyone who does not like a game should not be... lets say... colourfully vocal about it just in case the developer could be offended by it?

That first quote you gave is a snippet of a long ass quote by someone trying to be funny, pretending to be like some sort of council on how to 'fix' the game. He was being stupid. Not sure if that constitutes a ban, that MIGHT, it might not - it's up to the mods to decide. But this is where the argument has gone -

Denis complains on 1up that Neogaf is mean and needs to stop being mean or else (I swear I wish I was exaggerating). People saying that everyone who says mean things about developers games need to be banned.

Did you ever think that MAYBE some of the appeal of Neogaf is the fact that the people here can be so ruthlessly blunt to a developers digital face and not feel the need to 'sugarcoat'? Do you know how many boards I've been on where there was even a HINT of a developer in the same thread, EVERYTHING said was praise - even if it was like some no-name developer who 'worked alongside the people who made call of duty 2'. There is no criticism, constructive or otherwise.

I can understand people wanting mature discussions between developers and the masses, but that implies that the immature should be banned... so now you want to ban 3/4ths of Gaf/the internet? It's one of those situations where you have to take the bad with the good, and just keep the REALLY REALLY REALLY bad out. But there is no need to imply that gaf needs reform or something - we're seriously lucky that these mods do as good of a job as they do.

It would have sucked if instantly he was belittled, called fat, told his game and work sucked "because I say so", even if the game wasn't out yet.

People saying stuff like that get banned pretty much instantly, if not ALWAYS, most of the time - it's happened MANY MANY times before, people seem to forget that. And yeah... no one is doing this 'this game will suck because I say so' in this situation. People are saying - not even to Dyack's digital-face, but in a thread about his game, that his game looks terrible from what they've shown us. I do not see any problem with that.

 

[Twig]

It would have sucked if instantly he was belittled, called fat, told his game and work sucked "because I say so", even if the game wasn't out yet.

Uh. From what I can tell, Dyack is belittled because of the way he reacts to negativity. His attitude toward criticism is just fucking ridiculous. Nevermind that people make fun of him, that came after the fact. After he went on 1Up Yours complaining about how that preview just "wasn't ready!" How no one should judge the content that HE released to the public. Whether he was forced to do it or not, he should have accepted that what was shown wasn't up to snuff and taken that criticism for what it was: criticism.

"Oh, you didn't like my preview? That's understandable. It wasn't final. Rest assured, we're already aware of many of the flaws that have been pointed out already, and will take into consideration things we didn't notice before. It will still be a quality product! Just give us a little more time."

How much better is that compared to:

"Previews should be completely objective. It's not fair to judge something in an incomplete state. In fact, I think we should never show another preview again until the game is MUCH closer to release. All of you people who are basing your opinions off of this preview that we showed are wrong."

Eh?

 

[Dunlop]

Oh screw that - you're saying now that anyone who does not like a game should not be... lets say... colourfully vocal about it just in case the developer could be offended by it?

That first quote you gave is a snippet of a long ass quote by someone trying to be funny, pretending to be like some sort of council on how to 'fix' the game. He was being stupid. Not sure if that constitutes a ban, that MIGHT, it might not - it's up to the mods to decide. But this is where the argument has gone -

Denis complains on 1up that Neogaf is mean and needs to stop being mean or else (I swear I wish I was exaggerating). People saying that everyone who says mean things about developers games need to be banned.

Did you ever think that MAYBE some of the appeal of Neogaf is the fact that the people here can be so ruthlessly blunt to a developers digital face and not feel the need to 'sugarcoat'? Do you know how many boards I've been on where there was even a HINT of a developer in the same thread, EVERYTHING said was praise - even if it was like some no-name developer who 'worked alongside the people who made call of duty 2'. There is no criticism, constructive or otherwise.

I can understand people wanting mature discussions between developers and the masses, but that implies that the immature should be banned... so now you want to ban 3/4ths of Gaf/the internet?

Hey I find the Gif's as funny as everyone else.

What your are mistaking is the importance of GAF, the insiders stop posting here and that importance is gone. I never said to sugarcoat anything, I said to keep the ponts on topic and non personal.

 

[crowphoenix]

It's a fine line. On one hard, I think GAF should be hard and critical on a game. It is only fitting that a game be judged on what media we have. In Too Human's case, what we have are some cut scenes with terrible animation and some game play clips that contain the same. We should comment on these things, because they need to be know. From the footage I've seen, I can't actually tell if the game will be fun, so I reserve that decision until I have tried to game.

That said, being harsh on a game and on Dyack himself is two different things. The man is human, and I don't believe we should attack him. A little poking fun every now and again seems fair. I'm a jerk, and I expect to be treated much the same way. When you are attacking the man or belittling him only because you think his game looks bad, you've crossed the line.

Now, this thread is tricky, because it is actually about his comments on 1up yours. That is a subject that directly calls not only us into question, but himself as well. The best response for that, I'd say, is to remain civil. At least then, we've treated him decently.

 

[Kinitari]

Hey I find the Gif's as funny as everyone else.

What your are mistaking is the importance of GAF, the insiders stop posting here and that importance is gone. I never said to sugarcoat anything, I said to keep the ponts on topic and non personal.

What constitutes personal? I mean... 'calling a developer out' I do not see a problem with.

"Dyack, you said this game was going to be like [this], what the shit is [this] bullcrap?" - that seems fine.

"Dyack, you're a [blank blank blank] with a giant [blank] for a [blank] and I hope you [blank]" I can see as crossing the line. And when that happens, people usually get their asses banned.

Examples of people being banned/getting warnings on behalf of Dyack -

1 - people making jokes about his physical appearance
2 - people insisting that his game took 10 years to develop (albeit so many people did this it was probably hard for the mods to keep up with)

Shows the mods are trying VERY hard not to have the posters cross the lines they have set.

 

[Zzoram]

On CheapyD's CAGCast, he said he knows a guy who knews Dyack, and that he comes off as really insecure. I guess his obsession with NeoGAF would be further evidence of that.

 

[theBishop]

After listening to the entire discussion, i think Dennis makes some interesting points about culture and technology. Maybe he even makes some valid points about NeoGaf skirting any sense of responsibility to "the industry" and "society".

But on some level, it still feels like he's playing the refs: a lot of pseudo-intellectual arguments to head-off what is likely to be harsh criticism of the game that took nearly a decade to develop.

And I do agree you should play a game before spouting off about it on a message board. On the other hand, its pretty convenient that we have to play Too Human before we can say anything bad about it. He's already got our money at that point.

 

[theBishop]

On CheapyD's CAGCast, he said he knows a guy who knews Dyack, and that he comes off as really insecure. I guess his obsession with NeoGAF would be further evidence of that.

I know a guy who knows a guy who thinks I'm a real asshole.

 

[eznark]

On CheapyD's CAGCast, he said he knows a guy who knews Dyack, and that he comes off as really insecure. I guess his obsession with NeoGAF would be further evidence of that.

what's that line about glass houses? the fact that CheapyD scours the internets for mentions of his name/site (what up Cheapy!) tell me he may know a thing or two about insecurities.

 

[Madman]

What constitutes personal? I mean... 'calling a developer out' I do not see a problem with.

"Dyack, you said this game was going to be like [this], what the shit is [this] bullcrap?" - that seems fine.

"Dyack, you're a [blank blank blank] with a giant [blank] for a [blank] and I hope you [blank]" I can see as crossing the line. And when that happens, people usually get their asses banned.

Examples of people being banned/getting warnings on behalf of Dyack -

1 - people making jokes about his physical appearance
2 - people insisting that his game took 10 years to develop (albeit so many people did this it was probably hard for the mods to keep up with)

Shows the mods are trying VERY hard not to have the posters cross the lines they have set.

What is wrong with saying it has taken ten years to make? Duke Nukem Forever gets the same criticism and it is in pretty much the same position. Both games will end up taking around 10 years of development time before their release.

 

[Exempted]

What is wrong with saying it has taken ten years to make? Duke Nukem Forever gets the same criticism and it is in pretty much the same position. Both games will end up taking around 10 years of development time before their release.

Because they halted development on it and restarted it much later from scratch?

 

[Madman]

Because they halted development on it and restarted it much later from scratch?

So Duke Nukem didn't take ten years either in that case, right? Since they have had to start from scratch at least once if not more times now.

 

[Azih]

Personal attacks on Dyack have been bannable offenses for a long time now.To expect attacks on Dyack's abilities or games to be banned as well is ridiculous.

GAF is caustic and jaded, yes, but this is exactly what allows GAF to call out and smackdown bullshit wherever it may come from and no matter how much pretension it may be wrapped up in.

And there is *no* hivemind here. It is the extremely rare issue on which GAF reaches anything approaching a consensus. That Denis is one of those issues says far more about Dyack than it does about GAF

 

[Exempted]

So Duke Nukem didn't take ten years either in that case, right? Since they have had to start from scratch at least once if not more times now.

They didn't just stop developing DNF for a period of at least five years.

 

[Madman]

They didn't just stop developing DNF for a period of at least five years.

And we know this, how?

Eh, it doesn't matter anyways. I don't care how long either game took, and this has very little to do with the topic.

 

[Azih]

Further any suggestion to not judge games before they're released is just pure nonsense. This is a videogame forums and upcoming games *will* be discussed with judgements being a part and parcel of that.

And there's NOTHING AT ALL damaging about it in any case. A bad batch of screenshots (Wallguy anyone?) will be made completely irrelevant by a good trailer or gameplay movie, A bad video will be made completely irrelevant by a good demo. Even a bad demo is salvageable by good reviews. Any game developer or publisher is afforded multiple chances to get good hype based on what they release.

 

[AstroLad]

I agree with a lot of the points here, but what this really highlights for me is how in this day and age GAF can truly "make or break" a game: see MGS4 and COD4 for examples of "make" and Boogie for an example of "break."

So devs are trying to curry favor with GAF and understandably miffed when their efforts are rebutted. I'd expect to see a lot more of this in the coming future.

 

[GameGamer]

On CheapyD's CAGCast, he said he knows a guy who knews Dyack, and that he comes off as really insecure.

I know a guy that thinks that's unprofessional.

 

[Father_Brain]

Uh. From what I can tell, Dyack is belittled because of the way he reacts to negativity. His attitude toward criticism is just fucking ridiculous. Nevermind that people make fun of him, that came after the fact. After he went on 1Up Yours complaining about how that preview just "wasn't ready!" How no one should judge the content that HE released to the public. Whether he was forced to do it or not, he should have accepted that what was shown wasn't up to snuff and taken that criticism for what it was: criticism.

This thread in a nutshell: Dyack has a ridiculously thin skin and is pulling pretentious pseudo-intellectual bullshit out of his ass to justify dismissing any opinions about his game he disagrees with. Regardless of the actual quality of the game, that's all it comes down to.

 

[Dunlop]

To expect attacks on Dyack's abilities or games to be banned as well is ridiculous.

None of the examples that I gave from just that one page were questioning Dyack's abilities (suicide,predetermined failure,challenge to appear).

So we just keep loopiing around the same points. I said it is the mods job to determine what is out of bounds, I would definately say example 1 and 3 were.

You bring up good points with GAF but you must realize it is symbiotic, GAF is where it is at because or it's members and the valuable info it receives from the insiders.

Does anyone really expect Dyack to ever write here again? Most don't care now, but what about THII or any future projects? When others see the beating he takes, what would incline them to post here? Do you think the upside outweighs the downside for them in this context?

 

[Woo-Fu]

I agree with a lot of the points here, but what this really highlights for me is how in this day and age GAF can truly "make or break" a game: see MGS4 and COD4 for examples of "make" and Boogie for an example of "break."

GAF didn't "make" MGS4 for anybody except GAF. MGS, MGS2, and MGS3 made MGS4. I suspect the same could be said for CoD4.

 

[Spawn99]

All the hating on Too Human seems unwarranted to me and reminds me of the homophobes that hated on Brokeback Mountain.

 

[LiK]

anyone here in a good mood?

 

[Evlar]

anyone here in a good mood?

I am! But I haven't been reading the thread today. I just clicked on it and read your post.

 

[Dunlop]

anyone here in a good mood?

It's monday, I'm stuck in my cubicle hell

 

[eznark]

GAF didn't "make" MGS4 for anybody except GAF. MGS, MGS2, and MGS3 made MGS4. I suspect the same could be said for CoD4.

so what is the official tally at now AstroLad?

 

[Wrestlemania]

I'd like to add as an outsider that the totally delusional arguments from both sides of this argument have been very entertaining. Great work, everyone.

 

[AstroLad]

so what is the official tally at now AstroLad?

By my count GAF has had a direct influence on the sales of at least a dozen or so high-profile hits (and flops). Even if you break it down further, you'll notice that the early sales of a game like GTAIV were huge when GAF was severely hyped, but then you get things like the large backlash thread and general turn in the tide of sentiment on GAF and you do see the sales take a hit. To me this proves correlation.

 

[Wrestlemania]

By my count GAF has had a direct influence on the sales of at least a dozen or so high-profile hits (and flops). Even if you break it down further, you'll notice that the early sales of a game like GTAIV were huge when GAF was severely hyped, but then you get things like the large backlash thread and general turn in the tide of sentiment on GAF and you do see the sales take a hit. To me this proves correlation.

I honestly can't tell if this is serious or not.

 

[Tieno]

By my count GAF has had a direct influence on the sales of at least a dozen or so high-profile hits (and flops). Even if you break it down further, you'll notice that the early sales of a game like GTAIV were huge when GAF was severely hyped, but then you get things like the large backlash thread and general turn in the tide of sentiment on GAF and you do see the sales take a hit. To me this proves correlation.

 

[Madman]

I'd like to add as an outsider that the totally delusional arguments from both sides of this argument have been very entertaining. Great work, everyone.

You're no longer an outsider. You must now stand and be counted.

 

[Azih]

None of the examples that I gave from just that one page were questioning Dyack's abilities (suicide,predetermined failure,challenge to appear).

Aside from the suicide post none of those were personal attacks either caustic though they may have been. Hell the sucide post is probably less harsh then things I've said in regards to the Shadowrun developers (I noted that in certain older civlised cultures, men threw themselves on their swords when they failed as completely as the Shadowrun devs did). Should I be banned for that? Only mods can say but frankly I don't think so.

Criticism as harsh as it may be on GAF blows over and is forgotten especially in the face of positive hype.

You bring up good points with GAF but you must realize it is symbiotic, GAF is where it is at because or it's members and the valuable info it receives from the insiders.

This place is first and foremost a place to discuss games. The valuable info it recieves is 90%+ of the time a function of GAF members amazing ability to turn this forum into the best video game news aggregator out there and some of the best discussion as well. *This* is the important thing, not the insiders. *This* is what attracts whatever insiders it does. If all devs and publishers stopped posting tomorrow GAF would still be my only online forum. I barely notice them most of the time in any case.

Insiders are not the point of this place at all.

Does anyone really expect Dyack to ever write here again?

I don't want him to. The man has no idea how to behave in an online forum that doesn't worship his every word. He can't take any sort of heat at all, and the only way to keep his feelings from being hurt is neutering GAF. GAF isn't the problem here.

 

[eznark]

By my count GAF has had a direct influence on the sales of at least a dozen or so high-profile hits (and flops). Even if you break it down further, you'll notice that the early sales of a game like GTAIV were huge when GAF was severely hyped, but then you get things like the large backlash thread and general turn in the tide of sentiment on GAF and you do see the sales take a hit. To me this proves correlation.

well clearly

 

[Worm_Buffet]

By my count GAF has had a direct influence on the sales of at least a dozen or so high-profile hits (and flops). Even if you break it down further, you'll notice that the early sales of a game like GTAIV were huge when GAF was severely hyped, but then you get things like the large backlash thread and general turn in the tide of sentiment on GAF and you do see the sales take a hit. To me this proves correlation.

It doesn't stop there though. If you look at the OT side you can see a lot of people favoring western style free-market democracy there, and that is also gaining ground in other areas of the world like asia and eastern europe.

GAF's influence is quite astounding.

 

[eznark]

It doesn't stop there though. If you look at the OT side you can see a lot of people favoring western style free-market democracy there, and that is also gaining ground in other areas of the world like asia and eastern europe.

GAF's influence is quite astounding.

we've been visiting very different OT's

 

[PuppetMaster]

I'm still buying Too Human

Are you stupid

Spoiler

ified by Dyack's awesomeness

?

 

[Dunlop]

I don't want him to. The man has no idea how to behave in an online forum that doesn't worship his every word. He can't take any sort of heat at all, and the only way to keep his feelings from being hurt is neutering GAF. GAF isn't the problem here.

That's great for you, what about anyone who is interested in SK or TH?

 

[Spawn99]

I'm a firm believer that free speech isn't for everyone.

 

[bishoptl]

DeebBlue be careful what you wish for. If the mods were stricter, I'm sure it wouldn't be long before you were gone.

This.

 

[PuppetMaster]

That's great for you, what about anyone who is interested in SK or TH?

I'm sure the internet is still large enough to accommodate even such a strange fetish as that. Surely there is some dark corner of the internet with like minded forum members waiting for them with open arms.

 

[Jirotrom]

I agree with a lot of the points here, but what this really highlights for me is how in this day and age GAF can truly "make or break" a game: see MGS4 and COD4 for examples of "make" and Boogie for an example of "break."

So devs are trying to curry favor with GAF and understandably miffed when their efforts are rebutted. I'd expect to see a lot more of this in the coming future.

since when did gaf "make" COD4... haha COD4 made COD4 the game is flat out good. You think the majority of people out there buying these games are influenced by gaf? Carnival games sure did flop, so did boogie and countless other games that gaf hate on.

 

[besada]

What your are mistaking is the importance of GAF, the insiders stop posting here and that importance is gone.

So? What do we, as posters, care whether GAF is the pre-eminent dev home? So far as I can tell, the only devs with a problem are those attempting to use GAF as a sales platform.

Fuck 'em. Anyone is welcome to come and talk video games as a gamer. If you came with your sales hat on, you deserve what you get. This isn't a marketing venue for people, or at least it shouldn't be. GAF is for gamers. Devs have their own meetings and ways of communicating. GAF is for us, not them, not the media.

GAF is for gamers.