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[Evlar]

:lol You are one stern believer that power is only graphics?

I don't believe Power == Improvement. Better game experiences can happen with no increase in "power" at all. I'm having more fun on my DS than on any other system right now, and it's undoubtedly the weakest of all the current gaming hardware by any measure. Yet developers are using its unique abilities to come up with some potent gaming experiences. Sometimes more "power" just leads to more excess, and sparse "power" leads to the revitalization of whole genres that were all but abandoned a decade ago, stuff that I'm very happy to see come back around again.

Your examples are so limited. Undoubtedly someone will do something on the more powerful systems that I will want to play, something that's not possible on Wii or DS or PS2, my three primary gaming systems right now. But I also know stuff will actually be made for Wii and DS in the next few years (and perhaps even PS2) that I really want to play, stuff that simply won't get made on the bigger systems, because the size of investment and profile of the demographics on those machines make publishers avoid risks (or whatever other reason motivates publishers to create games for the less POWERFUL systems).

 

[justchris]

Good games and progression should not be mixed up. Why go against the chance for a superior version?

You know what, I agree with this. From now on, I've decided all games should be only on Wii.

 

[legend166]

Aren't people playing Halo 3 right now? Granted, I haven't played it, but from what I hear there is no great jump on the level of GoldenEye to Halo. I doubt much will change in 4 months.

 

[Jahaya]

That's not his point. AI doesn't need better hardware to achieve stuff that we see in MGS3. He isn't saying AI is irrelevant.

Edit: Oblivion does nothing that couldn't have been done with Morrowind.

Then why are these "nothings" not done before on older hardware?

Snake had far more interactions with everything in MGS3 world.
Oblivion had better physics that made the massive world more immersive.

It seem clearly better hardware can do better graphics AND better technical designs. Its all in the bits and bytes and it is a fact.

 

[SouthernDragon]

:lol You are one stern believer that power is only graphics?

No, but I've seen some of the smarter, more knowledgeable posters argue that the bulk of hardware power goes into that. I'll trust them over you.

What? Play Golden Eye and then Halo, play MGS1 and then MGS3. You are telling me there is no benefit to enemy AI and even in your own player capabilities?

That's the start of the PS1/N64 generation, when all these designs were being introduced and then were refined and amplified in the PS2/GC/Xbox gen. As it is, as far as I have been informed, AI benefits from greater processing power mainly through the ability to host more canned-routines. Most of the time, again, from what I gather, AI is rather simple. AI advancements are actually dumbing it down and making it more human-like in its errors and mistakes.

As for interactivity, I will gladly give you that one. More powerful hardware gives you the ability to interact with more items in the environment and manipulate them in greater ways than before. Woot! Now we can go into rooms, instead of doors that are just painted on the walls.

And that adds to gameplay design. Would a GTA game be the same on a small foggy NY with lesser objects for you to do your jumps or skid through traffic during a chase?

And GTA is one of the few genres that benefit greatly from this hardware enhancement. What about SRPGs? Racing sims? FPS? Platformers?

Well, I'd suppose platformers could host one huge level or something. Which would be cool.

What? You are telling me that the gameplay tactics will stay the same when you try to outsmart 10 enemies with 9 buddies on different tactical grounds, as when you are solo dealing with 3 AI coming at you in simplified arena?

That's incredibly vague, but I suppose I was, as well. I meant in games like Heavenly Sword and Ninety Nine Nights, where large amounts of enemies were present. However, the games remain the same whether there are 90 or 50 or 40 enemies on screen; button mash your way out of the situation.

Now, the situation you describe sounds either like an MMORPG or an FPS. I wouldn't know how to respond to that. MMORPGs are present, but are not common, on consoles. And FPSs seem to be doing rather well. Perhaps if a new gameplay mechanic is introduced and the computer takes great advantage of it, then we can say the hardware has definitely improved the genre.

Oh not this Oblivion on DVD9 again. But yes you CAN cleary see that better hardware improves game designs.

Oblivion is on Blu-Ray and powered by Cell, and simultaneously present on 360 and PC. Apparently, it looks the same, and plays the same. Isn't PS3 supposed to be ahead of it's time in terms of brute hardware strength?

 

[RiskyChris]

Then why are these "nothings" not done before on older hardware?

Snake had far more interactions with everything in MGS3 world.
Oblivion had better physics that made the massive world more immersive.

It seem clearly better hardware can do better graphics AND better technical designs. Its all in the bits and bytes and it is a fact.

Durr because Oblivion came out at the dawn of next gen? Why aren't games made for PS1 anymore?

Edit: Most of the hardware utility goes to improving graphics (i.e. a large portion of the budget for most games goes there). That's why power gets equated with graphics so often.

 

[CorwinB]

Ok, so this week's stupid argument is "Wii am underpowered severe, BR+Cell = t3h future ?" (again)

 

[SouthernDragon]

Yes.

Remember, while you may be enjoying your Wii, you could be enjoying those same games a lot more on your 1500$ HDTV with your 600$ PS3.

 

[Eteric Rice]

No, but I've seen some of the smarter, more knowledgeable posters argue that the bulk of hardware power goes into that. I'll trust them over you.

That's the start of the PS1/N64 generation, when all these designs were being introduced and then were refined and amplified in the PS2/GC/Xbox gen. As it is, as far as I have been informed, AI benefits from greater processing power mainly through the ability to host more canned-routines. Most of the time, again, from what I gather, AI is rather simple. AI advancements are actually dumbing it down and making it more human-like in its errors and mistakes.

As for interactivity, I will gladly give you that one. More powerful hardware gives you the ability to interact with more items in the environment and manipulate them in greater ways than before. Woot! Now we can go into rooms, instead of doors that are just painted on the walls.



And GTA is one of the few genres that benefit greatly from this hardware enhancement. What about SRPGs? Racing sims? FPS? Platformers?

Well, I'd suppose platformers could host one huge level or something. Which would be cool.

That's incredibly vague, but I suppose I was, as well. I meant in games like Heavenly Sword and Ninety Nine Nights, where large amounts of enemies were present. However, the games remain the same whether there are 90 or 50 or 40 enemies on screen; button mash your way out of the situation.

Now, the situation you describe sounds either like an MMORPG or an FPS. I wouldn't know how to respond to that. MMORPGs are present, but are not common, on consoles. And FPSs seem to be doing rather well. Perhaps if a new gameplay mechanic is introduced and the computer takes great advantage of it, then we can say the hardware has definitely improved the genre.


Oblivion is on Blu-Ray and powered by Cell, and simultaneously present on 360 and PC. Apparently, it looks the same, and plays the same. Isn't PS3 supposed to be ahead of it's time in terms of brute hardware strength?

Not to mention one game boasted 170 enemies could be on screen at once.

It was from the last generation.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Really? Oh shit. I thought that 100 was a lot, and that's what this generation was touting.

Well, perhaps the processing power makes these 100 a lot prettier. Which comes back to graphics.

 

[cartman414]

I remember having to argue so much in defense of Wii's lower tech approach, and kind of being in the position of Jahaya because many people were on the HD train. How the tables have turned.

In a nutshell, it's still too early for HD in terms of current gaming use and software/console hardware development costs.

Square Enix, at the very least, please please please have FF13 ported to PC/XBox 360 the way you had 7 and 8 ported to PC.

 

[cvxfreak]

Didn't Luigi's Mansion outsell RE4 by a pretty good amount?

In Japan, RE4's way ahead if you count the PS2 version alone.

 

[Eteric Rice]

Really? Oh shit. I thought that 100 was a lot, and that's what this generation was touting.

Well, perhaps the processing power makes these 100 a lot prettier. Which comes back to graphics.

http://xbox.ign.com/objects/734/734614.html

They claimed their engine could do it. But I've never played it, so I can't tell you for sure.

 

[justchris]

Then why are these "nothings" not done before on older hardware?

The same reason no game on the PS3 or 360 has better AI than PC games that were released over 20 years ago? The same reason the physics demos that were shown before the PS3 released haven't made it into an actual gaming experience yet?

The fact of the matter is, greater power does allow greater gameplay. The thing you're ignoring is, the power of the PS3/360 will mostly be wasted, the same way the power of the PS2/GC/Xbox were mostly wasted. Better AI and physics than what we had last generation were possible last generation. The fact that no one did that was simply because it grows exponentially more complex to program.

Greater hardware allows for greater complexity of various different systems, however, the improvements in graphics are immediately obvious and frankly don't require an exponential increase in programming time to produce, and therefore, 99 times out of every 100, graphics are the only thing that get improved, because physics, AI, strategy, controls, all of that is just as complex as it was last gen, and increasing the power of the system does not spontaneously make it easier.

Which is why, obviously, all games should be on the Wii in the future, since the Wii focuses on gameplay over graphics, so maybe developers will actually spend money and time on things that matter, you know, the things you're making such a fuss about, rather than shining that shit up for Cell and making it look all pretty.

 

[Jahaya]

No, but I've seen some of the smarter, more knowledgeable posters argue that the bulk of hardware power goes into that. I'll trust them over you.

who are these posters? Reggie? :lol

That's the start of the PS1/N64 generation, when all these designs were being introduced and then were refined and amplified in the PS2/GC/Xbox gen. As it is, as far as I have been informed, AI benefits from greater processing power mainly through the ability to host more canned-routines. Most of the time, again, from what I gather, AI is rather simple. AI advancements are actually dumbing it down and making it more human-like in its errors and mistakes.

As for interactivity, I will gladly give you that one. More powerful hardware gives you the ability to interact with more items in the environment and manipulate them in greater ways than before. Woot! Now we can go into rooms, instead of doors that are just painted on the walls.

And things will continue to amplify with the added headroom of PS3/360 generation that has started.

Videogaming is about the art of interaction, WOOT indeed.

And GTA is one of the few genres that benefit greatly from this hardware enhancement. What about SRPGs? Racing sims? FPS? Platformers?

Well, I'd suppose platformers could host one huge level or something. Which would be cool.

Racing sims, SRPG, sports games, platformers, FPS have all improved with faster calculation speed. Japanese SRPG less so. I dont see a problem here.

That's incredibly vague, but I suppose I was, as well. I meant in games like Heavenly Sword and Ninety Nine Nights, where large amounts of enemies were present. However, the games remain the same whether there are 90 or 50 or 40 enemies on screen; button mash your way out of the situation.

How about HS group AI and physics based tactics? That is already a progression from mindless slashing of last gen.

Now, the situation you describe sounds either like an MMORPG or an FPS. I wouldn't know how to respond to that. MMORPGs are present, but are not common, on consoles. And FPSs seem to be doing rather well. Perhaps if a new gameplay mechanic is introduced and the computer takes great advantage of it, then we can say the hardware has definitely improved the genre.

Yes hardware does improved most genres in a technical sense, as always. I see no problems again.

Oblivion is on Blu-Ray and powered by Cell, and simultaneously present on 360 and PC. Apparently, it looks the same, and plays the same. Isn't PS3 supposed to be ahead of it's time in terms of brute hardware strength?

Now you are just being silly. And when did i say PS3 to be "ahead of its time"?

 

[BrodiemanTTR]

The summer lull even claims Media Create threads. Nothing to talk about here except Odin Sphere and Ouendan nosediving and low sales all around. Fall plz hurry.

 

[Earthstrike]

Then why are these "nothings" not done before on older hardware?

Snake had far more interactions with everything in MGS3 world.
Oblivion had better physics that made the massive world more immersive.

It seem clearly better hardware can do better graphics AND better technical designs. Its all in the bits and bytes and it is a fact.

What makes a game quality is not only dependant on power, but also on gameplay. Nintendo decided to not focus many resources into improving their gameplay by means of a powerful system, but rather by spending money developing new ways to control a system. We can clearly see that Nintendo has made this choice before in the handheld market, and it has paid off. Who's to automatically grant the PS3 the "best games" award when the generation isn't even started and the cycle, games -> software -> games ... isn't even quite fully extrapolable.

Also, did you actually make a statement about Nintendo fanboys needing to spin? Spin what? Their incredibly high sales numbers and increasing developer support?

 

[Jahaya]

Durr because Oblivion came out at the dawn of next gen? Why aren't games made for PS1 anymore?

Edit: Most of the hardware utility goes to improving graphics (i.e. a large portion of the budget for most games goes there). That's why power gets equated with graphics so often.

So the new defence for Wii hardware is "some knowledgeable guys told me bulk of the power goes to graphics" ???

You are right on Oblivion though, dawn of next gen, so there are going to be more progression to be made on PS3/360!

 

[Sho_Nuff82]

Stuff

I'd really like you to explain how you could do the GAMEPLAY of Splinter Cell on N64 or even the Dreamcast.

Or recreate a stage like The Two Betrayals in Halo. Better yet, do Red Faction on PS1.

Stop making this into such a black and white issue. There are obviously SOME benefits of horsepower to gameplay, and there are obviously some benefits (otherwise known as sparks) that are entirely superfluous and (some of us ) can live without.

 

[ZeoVGM]

Jahaya is making my IQ lower.

 

[Evlar]

So the new defence for Wii hardware is "some knowledgeable guys told me bulk of the power goes to graphics" ???

You are right on Oblivion though, dawn of next gen, so there are going to be more progression to be made on PS3/360!

This hardware argument has gone on long enough. This is not the topic of the thread. It's not even remotely close to the topic of the thread. I've been as guilty as anyone in responding to you (twice), but enough is enough. Find a thread that is actually about this issue, or start your own and see how that fares for you.

 

[Link]

Jahaya is making my IQ lower.

I was thinking the same thing.

My favorite part was when he mentions the "art of interaction" as a benefit of the PS3/360 over the Wii. Because that makes sense.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

 

[Jahaya]

Ok, so this week's stupid argument is "Wii am underpowered severe, BR+Cell = t3h future ?" (again)

It is tiring i know and it seems the context of my original reply has been lost in the swarm of Wii hardware defenders.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Jahaya is making my IQ lower.

I wasn't going to say anything, but then I had my hour long commute home from work. For some reason Jahaya is still posting.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
My new anguish.jpg

 

[nli10]

So having first charted one full year ago this week it is HAPPY BIRTHDAY NEW SUPER MARIO BROS!! (aka excuse for graphs and Analysis Get!!)

Released on May 25th 2006 NSMB had the biggest launch day and week for a DS game in Japan (now beaten by my Pokemans) and is now the 2nd biggest selling DS game worldwide - and the highest to only have a single version (woof).

Looking over the years worth of sales sees some interesting patterns. The two week launch period totalled over 1 million units and sales declined steadily up to week 14 where sales almost halved. This was due to the release of FFIII in Japan and sales declined at a slightly faster rate from this point up until Xmas. Week 30-34 sees Mario back near the top of the chart due to the insane amounts of DS hardware being sold, and from here up to golden week sales are averaging 25k per week. Golden week sees 50k sales and then in week 52 the lowest confirmable sales week since launch (due to a slow market).

Is this the end for Mario? Doubtful - wherever DS unit's are sold Mario will rise again, especially with new DS colours on the way 4.5 Million is a sure thing, and 5 million likely by this time next year.

Some EXCITING facts (numbers trawled from GAF Media Create Threads):
Mean weekly sales (up to week 52): 85,745 units!
Mean weekly sales (weeks 5 to 52): 57,425 units!! (this excludes the 4 weeks selling above 200k)
Lowest confirmed weekly sales: 17862 (week 52)
Highest post launch sales: 154107 (week 31)
8 weeks at number 1 in Japan chart (first 4 consective)
41 out of the 53 weeks were spent in the top 10 (first 27 consecutive)

I'll update this with the 53rd week of sales as soon as I can.

Seeing as I foolishly posted this on the first page where graphs and info are invisible I shall quote myself to answer pretty much all the Mario related questions that have since happened - :face-rolls-eyes-and-shouts-are-you-blind

 

[Juwanna Peezadis]

I hope in this HD generation we'll be able to have games with hundreds of objects to interact with and, say for example, roll up into a big ball. I'm sure nothing like that could ever be done on last gen systems.

 

[Evlar]

Seeing as I foolishly posted this on the first page where graphs and info are invisible I shall quote myself to answer pretty much all the Mario related questions that have since happened - :face-rolls-eyes-and-shouts-are-you-blind

The most remarkable thing I see is how rock-steady sales for NSMB have been for the past twenty weeks, with just one small bump for Golden Week.

 

[Grampa Simpson]

Seeing as I foolishly posted this on the first page where graphs and info are invisible I shall quote myself to answer pretty much all the Mario related questions that have since happened - :face-rolls-eyes-and-shouts-are-you-blind

If you would cross that with weekly NDS sales, or maybe provide NDS:NSMB tie ratios for each week as available, it could be very interesting.

Ook!

Maybe a NDS:Brain Age 2 ratio.

 

[nli10]

If you would cross that with weekly NDS sales, or maybe provide NDS:NSMB tie ratios for each week as available, it could be very interesting.

Ook!

Maybe a NDS:Brain Age 2 ratio.

Exactly what I was thinking - I don't have that data though. Didn't jj post a link to all his number files? Don't suppose anyone has it

The most remarkable thing I see is how rock-steady sales for NSMB have been for the past twenty weeks, with just one small bump for Golden Week.

10 of those 20 weeks are extrapolated data (NSMB out of top 10) but as soon as it reenters the chart you just use the LTD number difference and figure out how many that averages per week. It's still a steady decline from 30k to 25k though, just not as smooth as the graph makes it look (I wasn't going to use madeioiup data to fill in the gaps now was I )

If anyone wants the actual week on week NSMB numbers with dates or week numbers I can post that after I get back from work. It's not like I own them or anything

 

[mj1108]

Jahaya is making my IQ lower.

...and to think we don't even have hardware numbers yet.

This is going to be a loooong sales thread at this rate.

Reading Jahaya's posts make me want to drink.

 

[ZeoVGM]

It is tiring i know and it seems the context of my original reply has been lost in the swarm of Wii hardware defenders.

You're the kind of person who words things in such a way where it may make you SEEM more intelligent to those who just skim through your posts, but when people actually take the time to READ what you're saying, they realize it's just silly.

 

[RiskyChris]

So the new defence for Wii hardware is "some knowledgeable guys told me bulk of the power goes to graphics" ???

You are right on Oblivion though, dawn of next gen, so there are going to be more progression to be made on PS3/360!

Diminishing Returns.

 

[Mudhoney]

It feels like I've gone 7 months back in time.

 

[Tf53]

Seeing as I foolishly posted this on the first page where graphs and info are invisible I shall quote myself to answer pretty much all the Mario related questions that have since happened - :face-rolls-eyes-and-shouts-are-you-blind

Could you please make another chart without the AVG and LTD lines and decrease the span of the Y-axis so the weekly sales would be more readable? It if isn't too much. Thank you!

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

1 Year. 4,480,257 units sold. Insane.

What scares me is that it is not finished yet. It could reach 5-6 millions.

 

[Eteric Rice]

What scares me is that it is not finished yet. It could reach 5-6 millions.

It hasn't even seen a price drop yet.

 

[Pachael]

I keep saying: Don't worry guys. Eventually 3rd parties will get the drift and start putting titles on the Wii for their greater userbase - it won't make sense otherwise to be just playing to a smaller audience - a bit like the last generation (PS2 v GC v XB).

So sit tight and stop complaining. Enjoy the ride on top of the charts

 

[GaimeGuy]

what's the attach rate for NSMB? About 25%?

Crazy

 

[Cheesemeister]

what's the attach rate for NSMB? About 25%?

Crazy

Yes, as of last week, it was 25.969778091312002107968870182969%.

 

[TJ Spyke]

And that is assuming every DS owner only bought 1 system. I wonder how high it would be if we knew how many people who owned a DS upgraded to a DS Lite. It's still incredibly high, and sales could continue for a long time (they haven't even done a price cut yet).

 

[Mithos Yggdrasill]

I've read some of this thread. It is all again the discussion between graphics vs. gameplay.

I think you guys are missing the most important point: it is not important what is really better on the market. I mean, the problem is not if PS3 is better because of his Blu-Ray of if the Wii is better because of his Wiimote.

What matters is the market: and the market seems that has chosen the Wii. So, Third Parties, have to act like a chamaleaon and adapt themself to the new situation and follow the probable new leader.
The rest just doesn't make sense: Third Parties cannot not to develop for the Wii only because 20 years ago Yamauchi had a iron hand with them or because "Nintendo is for kids".
These are things that fans can discute, but not an enterpreise, who's main objective is to make money and nothing else.
Sooner or later, if the market doesn't change again (it is possible, who knows ?), the developers will start to concentrate themself on the machine that is selling the most, outiside some exclusivity that Sony and/or Microsoft will pay.

Of course, you can act like Capcom and "avoid" the Wii, developing a lot of games for the west, where the X360 has a relative large userbase, but is it really a smart move ? With this, they give up in Japan, their mother-market. This is a short term vision, because if something goes wrong in the west, they havan't Japan anymore. In other term, this is a niche market, that is getting smaller and smaller....

I'm sure that Third parties will change attitude slowly, but surely, because in my opinion, they have no choice. Some Third Party like Square-Enix are shifting quicker, and some other like Konami a little bit slower, but at the end the shift is inevitable, exactly like it has always been in the past: with the NES and with the PSOne, for example.

It is only a matter of time.

 

[BrodiemanTTR]

I'm sure that Third parties will change attitude slowly, but surely, because in my opinion, they have no choice. Some Third Party like Square-Enix are shifting quicker, and some other like Konami a little bit slower, but at the end the shift is inevitable, exactly like it has always been in the past: with the NES and with the PSOne, for example.

I said "Pfft." Now Tecmo, surprisingly, they seem to know what's up.

 

[StevieP]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
And once again, the person who owns this thread is the one that doesn't even speak english as a first language. Mithos -> *golf clap* well done, sir.

As for Jahaya - go read up on the advantages and disadvantages of in-order architecture, then get back to us about advancing AI routines over graphics.

 

[CorwinB]

It feels like I've gone 7 months back in time.

1997 was only 7 months ago ? :lol

 

[GaimeGuy]

Hopefully Konami eventually comes to their senses and give us WII GOEMON and localize it for NA, because GOEMON IS JUST THAT AWESOME

 

[AniHawk]

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[Mithos Yggdrasill]

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[StevieP]

...

Holy crap at the ownage you just stealthed out. When did I miss this? :lol

 

[Pureauthor]

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!!!