DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Of course there is. Higher install base = more software sales = higher chance of subscriptions as well driving up revenue.
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Possible PS5 leak info
- Thread starter HeisenbergFX4
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Of course there is. Higher install base = more software sales = higher chance of subscriptions as well driving up revenue.
SonGoku
Member
Which is why i said curious indeed
I agree but its worth pointing out and so far Osiris hasn't cleared it up
Regardless 18gb its such an odd number for a console, hoping its just a place holder
Darius87
Member
So if they're not making money on ps4 or making 30$ or less by cuting price by 50$ they should be in net negative - 20$ - 50$ that seems bad business.
FranXico
Member
this.
We want to first start off by saying this post is in no way a an official endorsement by NeoGAF or it's Staff when it comes to this information since we cannot verify the source. So as such, all information thatOsirisBlack has, and will share moving forward should be treated as rumor and speculation.
This was shared to one of our staff members on Oct, 30th:
OK which number is the correct number for the GPU clock? 2.1Ghz or 1.121Ghz
eDRAM
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
1.121 sounds more accurate. We will have to wait for a clear up. He probably is posting various things to not blow cover?
FranXico
Member
No way, they would not pull an Xbox One.
SonGoku
Member
or maybe they are cutting the price because of recent cost reductions
Darius87
Member
Maybe, but in that case cost of all major parts must be reduced from different manufacturers to save up 50$, but still i doubt that they're not making any money on ps4, ps3 times are long gone.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
Lets gets this on here:
One of the things that make me think fake is the temporal reprojection hardware to be built in. That would ignore the breakout box. That kind of hardware combined with what the GPU sets out to do (Custom DLSS like hardware, Custom Raytracing stuff) seems expensive from a BOM point of view.
CPU: A 6 core/12 thread? We do make a massive jump in CPU power, but dropping from 8 to 6 seems a cost reduction step to me. Other than that; Zen 2 makes sense for that time frame. Customized stuff like this behind the scenes gets priority, this is why early sillicon often is so much earlier than near final stuff.
GPU: This is a bit more questionable. Whilst Navi is definitely a thing that might occur in 2019, i am not sure if Sony is able to get that tech in their console by Q4 2019. Like the CPU above, i do have to factor in early silicon, but where Zen 2 is more or less an evolution of an existing thing, Navi seems more modern than just that. Also, core counts.
Radeon Rays: The more controversial part of the leak. This sounds more like wishful thinking to me. Although RR exists, its (AFAIK) a software implementation on current cards, and not a dedicated core like Nvidia's RT Core. To have a hardware implementation of this seems costly, unless Navi is going to feature this aswell.
More doubts on my mind is the ''dedicated hardware post processing for a variety of the buffers'' part. So like Nvidia, hardware DLSS? This would be a bigger boost to frame rate if true, but again, this would mean custom silicon, thus raising the costs. I find that hard to believe, especially since again, AMD does not yet have a hardware analog to what Nvidia has in its RTX card. Thus this is all new and custom silicon which is expensive.
Memory: GDDR6 seems like a sure thing: By the time PS5 launches, this is a common memory format. 16 GB does seem a little low even when 14 GB is available. That's just 4 GB more than the Xbox One X, which admittely, uses GDDR5. And that's just a mid-gen refresh. Will that make the difference to a more stable native 4K?
I would wager 24 GB be a bigger boost, although 16 GB of GDDR6 is a huge step compared to base hardwares, and it is something you won't find in PC's (yet).
Conclusion:
This stuff sounds believable from the naked eye. But there are details that make me lean more towards the fake bracket. BOM (Bill of Materials) is a thing that one should not undermine, as that represents the true value of all the components that go into a console. I believe that there is too much custom hardware in there that this won't be made up by dropping 2 cores on the CPU spec or going with just 16 GB RAM in order to reduce the overall costs completely. Especially towards raytracing, hardware DLSS and then that hardware VR reprojection built in.. that seems excessive and killing for the BOM. Then we are talking prices at PS3 launch in my opinion (600 dollars) or even more.
But who knows, you know? Perhaps AMD and Sony strike a good deal and they can do all this for the expected 400-500 bucks. Such a device would ooze with potential though: We get raytracing on consoles, we get sufficient CPU/GPU power to finally tackle the more obvious culprits in technical application, but personally, although this is a very well done spec, i don't think it will work out just solely for the aforementioned details. But i'd love to be proven wrong by AMD/Sony in this regard.
One of the things that make me think fake is the temporal reprojection hardware to be built in. That would ignore the breakout box. That kind of hardware combined with what the GPU sets out to do (Custom DLSS like hardware, Custom Raytracing stuff) seems expensive from a BOM point of view.
CPU: A 6 core/12 thread? We do make a massive jump in CPU power, but dropping from 8 to 6 seems a cost reduction step to me. Other than that; Zen 2 makes sense for that time frame. Customized stuff like this behind the scenes gets priority, this is why early sillicon often is so much earlier than near final stuff.
GPU: This is a bit more questionable. Whilst Navi is definitely a thing that might occur in 2019, i am not sure if Sony is able to get that tech in their console by Q4 2019. Like the CPU above, i do have to factor in early silicon, but where Zen 2 is more or less an evolution of an existing thing, Navi seems more modern than just that. Also, core counts.
Radeon Rays: The more controversial part of the leak. This sounds more like wishful thinking to me. Although RR exists, its (AFAIK) a software implementation on current cards, and not a dedicated core like Nvidia's RT Core. To have a hardware implementation of this seems costly, unless Navi is going to feature this aswell.
More doubts on my mind is the ''dedicated hardware post processing for a variety of the buffers'' part. So like Nvidia, hardware DLSS? This would be a bigger boost to frame rate if true, but again, this would mean custom silicon, thus raising the costs. I find that hard to believe, especially since again, AMD does not yet have a hardware analog to what Nvidia has in its RTX card. Thus this is all new and custom silicon which is expensive.
Memory: GDDR6 seems like a sure thing: By the time PS5 launches, this is a common memory format. 16 GB does seem a little low even when 14 GB is available. That's just 4 GB more than the Xbox One X, which admittely, uses GDDR5. And that's just a mid-gen refresh. Will that make the difference to a more stable native 4K?
I would wager 24 GB be a bigger boost, although 16 GB of GDDR6 is a huge step compared to base hardwares, and it is something you won't find in PC's (yet).Conclusion:
This stuff sounds believable from the naked eye. But there are details that make me lean more towards the fake bracket. BOM (Bill of Materials) is a thing that one should not undermine, as that represents the true value of all the components that go into a console. I believe that there is too much custom hardware in there that this won't be made up by dropping 2 cores on the CPU spec or going with just 16 GB RAM in order to reduce the overall costs completely. Especially towards raytracing, hardware DLSS and then that hardware VR reprojection built in.. that seems excessive and killing for the BOM. Then we are talking prices at PS3 launch in my opinion (600 dollars) or even more.
But who knows, you know? Perhaps AMD and Sony strike a good deal and they can do all this for the expected 400-500 bucks. Such a device would ooze with potential though: We get raytracing on consoles, we get sufficient CPU/GPU power to finally tackle the more obvious culprits in technical application, but personally, although this is a very well done spec, i don't think it will work out just solely for the aforementioned details. But i'd love to be proven wrong by AMD/Sony in this regard.
KingT731
Member
I remember Shuhei Yoshida saying the PS4 was profitable on Day 1 after 1 game sale...So I doubt they aren't making money off the PS4 5 years later.
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Vega 7nm is clocked closer to 2.1Ghz & for PS5 to be 11TF with a GPU clocked at 1.121Ghz it would have to have around 78 CU unless there really is a big change with Navi like the patent.
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
Ah ok, gotcha. I was going off of what speeds are clocked at now with the current 16nm.
Darius87
Member
yea by now they should be making 50$ or even more ps4 is old machine by now so it's cheap to make.
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TLZ
Member
Darius87
Member
There's no chance navi will be 1.121Ghz 2.1Ghz is to high, given that nvidias turing base clock is around 1.5Ghz on 12nm (or14nm?) lithography process so in actuality Amd 7nm converted to nvidia's would be 10nm so i think AMD 7nm would be around 1.7Ghz but on console of course is allways lower than pc cards so 1.4Ghz-1.6Ghz give or take.
sendit
Member
Shorter generational gaps are going to be the norm. PS4 Pro's success definitely factored in to this decision. Don't expect exponential growth of hardware specs as we did in the past. People are willing to pay for better hardware within a shorter time frame instead of waiting 7-10 years for an update.
Redneckerz
Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
That 880 GB's is either embedded RAM (Unlikely because expensive) or HBM2 which would be hilarious if true. 16 GB to 18 GB HBM2? Well, that's one way to utilize the memory.
That memory width should be crazy wide then. But if Osiris is saying 18 GB and this leak says 16, then the ballpark is usually in the middle.
That memory width should be crazy wide then. But if Osiris is saying 18 GB and this leak says 16, then the ballpark is usually in the middle.
prinz_valium
Member
Sony sold 20m Ps4 in FY16
Sony sold 19m Ps4 in FY17
If they made $50 on each console, that would be $1bn profit.
The total profit of the whole G&NS division in FY16? Below $1.2bn
And even if they made only $30 just recently in FY2017 when their profits skyrocketed to $1.55bn, that would be more than 1/3 of the total.
Does not work out.
You don't make any meaningful money on console hardware. Games, Services and MTX is where the money is.
MightySquirrel
Banned
@ 880 GB/s memory bandwidth.To put in perspective 2080Ti using latest GDDR6 video memory is rated at 616 GB/s with 352 Bit memory interface config.
SonGoku
Member
They could be making money on ps4 just not as much or not for prolonged periods
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
To put in perspective 2080Ti using latest GDDR6 video memory is rated at 616 GB/s with 352 Bit memory interface config.
I had no idea the 2080Ti has B/W of 616 GBs. I find it hard to believe this 880 GBs number now. If true, the PS5 will truly be a beast. It sounds too good to be true.
GlassAwful
Member
Hooray there's specs out there. Great, now expectations are suitably set so if they fall short in any area people are disappointed and if they match them then so what we've known this forever.
Now what would you all like to discuss over the next year plus as we wait for the official reveal.
Now what would you all like to discuss over the next year plus as we wait for the official reveal.
McHuj
Member
It could be some AMD chiplet design with a very high bandwidth to the GPU. But I don't see how that will be economically for a console anytime soon.
The alleged specs seem weird. The RAM amount and bandwidth almost seems like an aggregate sum of several different components. Something a marketing department would do.
TLZ
Member
At least it's that time of the year again where we have fun before the imminent revealHooray there's specs out there. Great, now expectations are suitably set so if they fall short in any area people are disappointed and if they match them then so what we've known this forever.
Now what would you all like to discuss over the next year plus as we wait for the official reveal.
base
Banned
More than 16 GB RAM in PS5? Impossible. High RAM prices.
GPU better than GeForce 1080Ti in 2019 in PS5? Yea, sure. Only if the console costs more than 600 euros.
All we can get is a good CPU upgrade because Zen 2 will be suitable enough for PS5.
P.S: Anyone expecting built-in SSD should wake up. Games are getting heavier every year. PS5 should start with 2 TB HDD. Remind me how much 2 TB SSD cost at the moment?
GPU better than GeForce 1080Ti in 2019 in PS5? Yea, sure. Only if the console costs more than 600 euros.
All we can get is a good CPU upgrade because Zen 2 will be suitable enough for PS5.
P.S: Anyone expecting built-in SSD should wake up. Games are getting heavier every year. PS5 should start with 2 TB HDD. Remind me how much 2 TB SSD cost at the moment?
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TLZ
Member
I don't know how much they'd cost them and what agreements they have with AMD, but obviously they're much cheaper than what you'd buy from a store.
You all are too caught up in the hardware specs. All I want is for sony to improve the PSN experience to the next level like faster download speeds, better online stability and connections, then worry about the hardware later. Powerful software and hardware combined would make the leap over this gen a lot better.
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pawel86ck
Banned
According to AMD presentation raytracing on AMD VEGA can be accelerated thanks to async. I remember seeing vega vs pascal results in raytracing operations and the difference was HUGE, and of course in PS5 they should prepare whole hardware for raytracing operations from the start with even better results so I would be not surprised if PS5 would indeed use raytracing. It would be a big selling point for sure, and console games unlike PC games can be played at 30fps, so requirements for raytracing will be lower.Lets gets this on here:
One of the things that make me think fake is the temporal reprojection hardware to be built in. That would ignore the breakout box. That kind of hardware combined with what the GPU sets out to do (Custom DLSS like hardware, Custom Raytracing stuff) seems expensive from a BOM point of view.
CPU: A 6 core/12 thread? We do make a massive jump in CPU power, but dropping from 8 to 6 seems a cost reduction step to me. Other than that; Zen 2 makes sense for that time frame. Customized stuff like this behind the scenes gets priority, this is why early sillicon often is so much earlier than near final stuff.
GPU: This is a bit more questionable. Whilst Navi is definitely a thing that might occur in 2019, i am not sure if Sony is able to get that tech in their console by Q4 2019. Like the CPU above, i do have to factor in early silicon, but where Zen 2 is more or less an evolution of an existing thing, Navi seems more modern than just that. Also, core counts.
Radeon Rays: The more controversial part of the leak. This sounds more like wishful thinking to me. Although RR exists, its (AFAIK) a software implementation on current cards, and not a dedicated core like Nvidia's RT Core. To have a hardware implementation of this seems costly, unless Navi is going to feature this aswell.
More doubts on my mind is the ''dedicated hardware post processing for a variety of the buffers'' part. So like Nvidia, hardware DLSS? This would be a bigger boost to frame rate if true, but again, this would mean custom silicon, thus raising the costs. I find that hard to believe, especially since again, AMD does not yet have a hardware analog to what Nvidia has in its RTX card. Thus this is all new and custom silicon which is expensive.
Memory: GDDR6 seems like a sure thing: By the time PS5 launches, this is a common memory format. 16 GB does seem a little low even when 14 GB is available. That's just 4 GB more than the Xbox One X, which admittely, uses GDDR5. And that's just a mid-gen refresh. Will that make the difference to a more stable native 4K?
Conclusion:
This stuff sounds believable from the naked eye. But there are details that make me lean more towards the fake bracket. BOM (Bill of Materials) is a thing that one should not undermine, as that represents the true value of all the components that go into a console. I believe that there is too much custom hardware in there that this won't be made up by dropping 2 cores on the CPU spec or going with just 16 GB RAM in order to reduce the overall costs completely. Especially towards raytracing, hardware DLSS and then that hardware VR reprojection built in.. that seems excessive and killing for the BOM. Then we are talking prices at PS3 launch in my opinion (600 dollars) or even more.
But who knows, you know? Perhaps AMD and Sony strike a good deal and they can do all this for the expected 400-500 bucks. Such a device would ooze with potential though: We get raytracing on consoles, we get sufficient CPU/GPU power to finally tackle the more obvious culprits in technical application, but personally, although this is a very well done spec, i don't think it will work out just solely for the aforementioned details. But i'd love to be proven wrong by AMD/Sony in this regard.
I hope sony will release some official info in Q1 2019, but I have to say I would like to see PS5 design similar to what is presented here, because it looks amazing, like PS2 (my favorite console) and PS4 mix. PS4P looks ugly as hell compared to this render. And BTW. Fake or not, someone who made this render was very talened, it's not some amateur work for sure.
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OsirisBlack
OsirisBlack
OsirisBlack
(oh I thought if I said his name 3 times he would show up & leak the rest of the PS5 details )
base
Banned
For what? It works fine already. I don't play multiplayer games apart from FIFA18 (only sometimes).
TLZ
Member
"Say my name three times like candy man, bet I roll on your a** like an avalanche"
(oh I thought if I said his name 3 times he would show up & leak the rest of the PS5 details )
I hope he does
Not only with HBM but with 4 stacks.... Consider me skeptical about the "leaks"....
Good remark... We definitely need more specific info.
GPU frequency is a bit low (was expecting more around 1.2Ghz or 1.3)
The CPU looks legit.
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Yup...noted.
thelastword
Banned
We're getting warmer, but even warmer still at CES.....we shall become...We want to first start off by saying this post is in no way a an official endorsement by NeoGAF or it's Staff when it comes to this information since we cannot verify the source. So as such, all information that
This was shared to one of our staff members on Oct, 30th:
No, there are other ways with other memory types......Not disregarding the possibilty of HBM though, HBM3?..., but I don't think such bandwidth will be impossible for a console in two years......Besides, such bandwidth may very well be shared by GPU+CPU...
StreetsofBeige
Member
Personally, I think this whole leak thing is so fake, there' no point, however does anyone have OsirisBlacks old leaks? People were waying he did some PS Pro leaks and were totally off. Any other leaks he's done?
Would be interested to see what kind of track record he has.
Would be interested to see what kind of track record he has.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
I think a 6c/12t configuration for Ryzen 2 (nice to see they solved the AVX-256 half speed issue they had with the first generation Ryzen) running at 2.5 GHz (base clock, boost clock maybe going to 3-3.5 GHz if enabled) would run circles around the PS4 Pro and Xbox One X CPU configurations, but I still think they could fit the 8c/16t setup as the former leaves a top big percentage of CPU resources to the OS (or restrains it too much).
Darius87
Member
you forgot that sony also spends money on their employees, R&D department (PS5, PSVR, PSVR2 other HW...) also supporting Devs, you can't just count their profit like you did, it's just wrong.
bitbydeath
Member
PlayGo as well which allows for games to install in segments and in turn faster from disc.
Ar¢tos
Member
Why would there be any need for more than 16gb for 4k games?
If the bandwidth is high, 12-14gb for games is more than enough. And if developers are clever enough, they won't use 4k at all, higher res CB is more than enough and use the rest of the resources to better AA, shadows, etc.
It might be far fetched, but Considering Sony already has AMD making semi-custom APUs for them, they could also have a memory manufacturer making semi-custom GDDR5x/GDDR6 for them. The amounts they need would easily justify it.
If the bandwidth is high, 12-14gb for games is more than enough. And if developers are clever enough, they won't use 4k at all, higher res CB is more than enough and use the rest of the resources to better AA, shadows, etc.
It might be far fetched, but Considering Sony already has AMD making semi-custom APUs for them, they could also have a memory manufacturer making semi-custom GDDR5x/GDDR6 for them. The amounts they need would easily justify it.
DemonCleaner
Member
if that's a fake, it's an rather elaborate one.
things that say to me it isn't fake:
- 3640stream processors @ 11.2 TFLOPS mean it would run at around 1.5 Ghz which would fit nicely in a lower than 100W power budget for the GPU at 7nm
- i think that would be rather disappointing spec wise, but i don't think it's completely unlikely that sony tries to cheap out after the succses of ps4
things that look fake to me:
- if the 3640 stream processors arn't a rounded figure (and i don't see why they should round that) that would give 56,875 SPs per Compute Unit, figurering they still use 64 SPs per CU as in GCN. that obviously does not work.
- this means this would need a completly new gpu pipeline. to get an even number of SPs per CU you would have to scale down to 8 SPs per CU (which would give a total of 455 CUs). while this might have benefits for shader usage and maybe efficiency, it's seems a bit excessive to em and also would make backwards compatibility more difficult.
- i don't see why amd should go with a relatively big monolithic APU die, when they have the exquisit infinity fabric tech on their hands, which would give much higher yield and therefore lower cost for a seperate CPU and GPU die on the same substrate
things that say to me it isn't fake:
- 3640stream processors @ 11.2 TFLOPS mean it would run at around 1.5 Ghz which would fit nicely in a lower than 100W power budget for the GPU at 7nm
- i think that would be rather disappointing spec wise, but i don't think it's completely unlikely that sony tries to cheap out after the succses of ps4
things that look fake to me:
- if the 3640 stream processors arn't a rounded figure (and i don't see why they should round that) that would give 56,875 SPs per Compute Unit, figurering they still use 64 SPs per CU as in GCN. that obviously does not work.
- this means this would need a completly new gpu pipeline. to get an even number of SPs per CU you would have to scale down to 8 SPs per CU (which would give a total of 455 CUs). while this might have benefits for shader usage and maybe efficiency, it's seems a bit excessive to em and also would make backwards compatibility more difficult.
- i don't see why amd should go with a relatively big monolithic APU die, when they have the exquisit infinity fabric tech on their hands, which would give much higher yield and therefore lower cost for a seperate CPU and GPU die on the same substrate
THE:MILKMAN
Member
6c/12t would still be nice enough I agree but 8c just keeps things simple from PS4. I really don't think Sony would be comfortable with base/boost clocks outside of PS4 BC perhaps. A fixed clock in the 2.5/3.0GHz range is more likely in a console IMO.
Panajev2001a
GAF's Pleasant Genius
It depends if a brief boost in some/all cores allows the chip to race units to sleep earlier and that means they stay asleep for longer then you are actually saving power overall, but yeah you need to tolerate those spikes.
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