• Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.

Possible PS5 leak info

Status
Not open for further replies.

THE:MILKMAN

Member
It depends if a brief boost in some/all cores allows the chip to race units to sleep earlier and that means they stay asleep for longer then you are actually saving power overall, but yeah you need to tolerate those spikes.

It would be nice if Sony/Mark Cerny could flesh this out and make base/boost work generally. I'm basing my doubt on how Mark Cerny answered Richard leadbetter's question about changing/upgrading the CPU in Pro (because hey, it x86 right!) and how timing (clock speed) really messed things up. And that was in relation to PS4 never mind the even more architecturally different Navi/Zen PS5 will likely be.

If they have figured these issues out then that will be great of course.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
It would be nice if Sony/Mark Cerny could flesh this out and make base/boost work generally. I'm basing my doubt on how Mark Cerny answered Richard leadbetter's question about changing/upgrading the CPU in Pro (because hey, it x86 right!) and how timing (clock speed) really messed things up. And that was in relation to PS4 never mind the even more architecturally different Navi/Zen PS5 will likely be.

If they have figured these issues out then that will be great of course.

True, but they must have solved it already as they did enable boost mode for PS4 compatibility. I think he was more worried around investing in both a more costly BC solution as well as a new CPU architecture to reap little benefits in Pro patched titles, but yeah your point has merit.
 

RaijinFY

Member
No, there are other ways with other memory types......Not disregarding the possibilty of HBM though, HBM3?..., but I don't think such bandwidth will be impossible for a console in two years......Besides, such bandwidth may very well be shared by GPU+CPU...

Which are? Because to get 880GB/s with decent thermal you need HBM.... You won't get that with GDDR6.
 
Last edited:
you forgot that sony also spends money on their employees, R&D department (PS5, PSVR, PSVR2 other HW...) also supporting Devs, you can't just count their profit like you did, it's just wrong.
And they have that expenses for all the company division. Those people also work on games and services.
You still claim they make over 1/3 profits on hardware.

Also pure hardware companies have just a single digit profit margin.
Dell, Lenovo and HP for example.
Most Smartphone manufacturers, too that are not called Apple.

They don't make that much money on Ps4 hardware. And especially not on new released hardware.
Let them make between $10 and $20 now depending on pricing, promotions and SKU. That is already a lot.
 

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
According to AMD presentation raytracing on AMD VEGA can be accelerated thanks to async.
I am aware. Radeon Rays is specifically targeting OpenCL so that it runs on multiple platforms, but with a quick look, i have yet to see if the ACE engines are performing equivalent to a dedicated RT Core. The way they are presented within the GPU seems to be of a much smaller scope than Nvidia's RT Core, so i don't know if its dedicated hardware in the sense of small SIMD cores or software.

It does seem to be fundamentally different to Nvidia's RT Core though, which is really a big dedicated block within the GPU die.

It would be a big selling point for sure, and console games unlike PC games can be played at 30fps, so requirements for raytracing will be lower.
Raytracing isn't so much tied to framerate, more that you need a lot of grunt to pull it off. RTX cards can pull it off now, but not at PC Enthusiast resolutions - 1080p and lower is commonly named. If next-gen consoles are going to include dedicated RT hardware, we should expect similar (or lower) resolutions. I am not sure if you want one more generation being at Full HD. Or perhaps it will be a toggable option: 4K without RT, 1080p or lower with.
 

onQ123

Member
if that's a fake, it's an rather elaborate one.

things that say to me it isn't fake:

- 3640stream processors @ 11.2 TFLOPS mean it would run at around 1.5 Ghz which would fit nicely in a lower than 100W power budget for the GPU at 7nm
- i think that would be rather disappointing spec wise, but i don't think it's completely unlikely that sony tries to cheap out after the succses of ps4

things that look fake to me:

- if the 3640 stream processors arn't a rounded figure (and i don't see why they should round that) that would give 56,875 SPs per Compute Unit, figurering they still use 64 SPs per CU as in GCN. that obviously does not work.
- this means this would need a completly new gpu pipeline. to get an even number of SPs per CU you would have to scale down to 8 SPs per CU (which would give a total of 455 CUs). while this might have benefits for shader usage and maybe efficiency, it's seems a bit excessive to em and also would make backwards compatibility more difficult.
- i don't see why amd should go with a relatively big monolithic APU die, when they have the exquisit infinity fabric tech on their hands, which would give much higher yield and therefore lower cost for a seperate CPU and GPU die on the same substrate


It only make sense if Navi is the GPU that was in AMD patent that has CU's & Small CU's


https://www.neogaf.com/threads/amd-patents-super-simd-first-change-to-cu-since-gcn.1462309/
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
To add, it would make sense having the smaller CU cores for BC work, similar to how they basically mirrored cores in the Pro.
 

pawel86ck

Banned
I am aware. Radeon Rays is specifically targeting OpenCL so that it runs on multiple platforms, but with a quick look, i have yet to see if the ACE engines are performing equivalent to a dedicated RT Core. The way they are presented within the GPU seems to be of a much smaller scope than Nvidia's RT Core, so i don't know if its dedicated hardware in the sense of small SIMD cores or software.

It does seem to be fundamentally different to Nvidia's RT Core though, which is really a big dedicated block within the GPU die.


Raytracing isn't so much tied to framerate, more that you need a lot of grunt to pull it off. RTX cards can pull it off now, but not at PC Enthusiast resolutions - 1080p and lower is commonly named. If next-gen consoles are going to include dedicated RT hardware, we should expect similar (or lower) resolutions. I am not sure if you want one more generation being at Full HD. Or perhaps it will be a toggable option: 4K without RT, 1080p or lower with.
According to Digital Foundry (their battlefield 5 rtx effects analysis video) it's possible to run RTX effects in different resolutions, and then scale it to your native game resolution. RTX effects rendered even in 1080p would look amazing scaled to 4K, and keep in mind current games also scales shadow resolution and reflections resolution.
 
Last edited:

Redneckerz

Those long posts don't cover that red neck boy
According to Digital Foundry (their battlefield 5 rtx effects analysis video) it's possible to run RTX effects in different resolutions, and then scale it to your native game resolution. RTX effects rendered even in 1080p would look amazing scaled to 4K, and keep in mind current games also scales shadow resolution and reflections resolution.
Are you sure that this is what they said and you aren't referring to DLSS instead? RTX effects are very taxing from the get go.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Which are? Because to get 880GB/s with decent thermal you need HBM.... You won't get that with GDDR6.

I'm not sure about the thermals but I am intrigued by something. Samsung who exclusively supply PS4 RAM announced back in January mass production start of 18Gb/s chips which would = 864GB/s BW with a 384bit bus.

F5Yc.png


What I don't understand is that if Samsung have been making these 18Gb/s chips since January then what product(s) are using them? Could they be stockpiling for PS5 mass production?

Like I say, I have serious doubts about using such high bandwidth, and no doubt expensive, chips in PS5 as even the high-end RTX 2080Ti is only using Micron 14Gb/s chips at 616GB/s BW.

The other issue is the figures are not close to tallying with OsirisBlack's current info.
 

DeepEnigma

Gold Member
I'm not sure about the thermals but I am intrigued by something. Samsung who exclusively supply PS4 RAM announced back in January mass production start of 18Gb/s chips which would = 864GB/s BW with a 384bit bus.

F5Yc.png


What I don't understand is that if Samsung have been making these 18Gb/s chips since January then what product(s) are using them? Could they be stockpiling for PS5 mass production?

Like I say, I have serious doubts about using such high bandwidth, and no doubt expensive, chips in PS5 as even the high-end RTX 2080Ti is only using Micron 14Gb/s chips at 616GB/s BW.

The other issue is the figures are not close to tallying with OsirisBlack's current info.

You have to remember one thing, nVidia can get away with going with less because of the hold they have on the market. Just like the 11GB to shave cost. If they really wanted to, they could pump out more. They seem to do "just enough" lately, so hopefully AMD kicks it up a notch in the next year or two lighting back up more competitive gains.

But also, that may be an interesting point you made, maybe they are held back for consoles if that bandwidth is true. Osiris did say the parts are expensive right now so do not expect it for a year to a year and a half.
 
Last edited:

Stuart360

Member
Probably fake, but sounds close to what we will get imo, in fact its slightly more than i was expecting as i was thinking about 10tf for PS5 and about 11tf for Xbox. I just couldnt see them doubling the X for a cheaper console.
About to read this thread though now to see TheLastWords posts, after he posted this in another thread last week lol -

If PD could do this on a 1.84TF machine and some crappy Jaguar cores...PD will absolutely cream the competition with an 18-25TF GPU and a 16 Core Ryzen
 

93xfan

Member
They wouldn’t be putting the HDD specs in just yet, I’m pretty sure.

I’d say this is almost certainly fake
 

onQ123

Member
Not exactly. It says 'same as original PlayStation 4'. Pedantic I know...

What about PS4 leak that said it would have a harddrive over 380GB?

http://vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-ps4-in-deep-first-specs/

In exclusive we have the detailed first specs (not final) for PS4, most likely first alpha kits sent to developers:

TLDR SPECS

CPU

  • 4 core (2 core pairs) 3.2 GHz AMD x86 (Steamroller)
  • aggregate, 10x PS3 PPU performance
  • 512 KByte L2 per core pair
  • 64 bit pointers
GPU

  • AMD R10x series GPU @ 800 MHz (Tahiti)
  • aggregate 10x RSX performance, 1.84 TFlops
  • DX”11.5″
  • cheap branching
  • 18 compute units, focus on fine grained compute & tessellation
MEMORY:

  • 2 GByte UMA, pushing for 4 GByte
  • 192 GByte/ sec non-coherent access for e.g. GPU
  • 12 GByte/ sec coherent access for CPU
  • >50% longer memory latency for CPU/ GPU compared to PC!!!
  • DXT is lowest bpp texture compression format
MEDIA:

  • 50 GByte BD drive
  • PCAV, between 3.3 and 8x BD, most likely clamped to 6x
  • automatic background caching to HDD
  • HDD SKU with at least 380 GByte
  • downloadable games
EXTRA HARDWARE:

  • video encoder/ decoder
  • audio processing unit, ~200 concurrent MP3 streams
  • HW zlib decompressor
Our source claims that the final specs should be 10x powerful than PS3, due to this info has got 10 months.



Read more http://vgleaks.com/world-exclusive-ps4-in-deep-first-specs/
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
Yeah I guess the original PS4 docs had a minimum figure but the Pro doesn't. I don't have a copy of the PS4 docs so can't check myself.
 

OsirisBlack

Banned
We want to first start off by saying this post is in no way a an official endorsement by NeoGAF or it's Staff when it comes to this information since we cannot verify the source. So as such, all information that OsirisBlack OsirisBlack has, and will share moving forward should be treated as rumor and speculation.

This was shared to one of our staff members on Oct, 30th:



OsirisBlack OsirisBlack you are free to share any other information in which you have when you see fit.

Thank you I'm going to make sure everything is a go and I will post up today after work.
 

RaijinFY

Member
I'm not sure about the thermals but I am intrigued by something. Samsung who exclusively supply PS4 RAM announced back in January mass production start of 18Gb/s chips which would = 864GB/s BW with a 384bit bus.

F5Yc.png


What I don't understand is that if Samsung have been making these 18Gb/s chips since January then what product(s) are using them? Could they be stockpiling for PS5 mass production?

Like I say, I have serious doubts about using such high bandwidth, and no doubt expensive, chips in PS5 as even the high-end RTX 2080Ti is only using Micron 14Gb/s chips at 616GB/s BW.

The other issue is the figures are not close to tallying with OsirisBlack's current info.

You will never get 18gb/s ram in a console... Guys we need to be realistic here, there are economic and thermal constraints you can't overcome like that. You need to sell a machine at 399 (or even at 499) you have to do some trade-off.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
You will never get 18gb/s ram in a console... Guys we need to be realistic here, there are economic and thermal constraints you can't overcome like that. You need to sell a machine at 399 (or even at 499) you have to do some trade-off.

I don't really believe it myself as 800+GB BW for a 10-12TF GPU seems way overkill. I'm still very curious why Samsung announced these 18Gbps chips but not put them even in the $10,000 RTX Quadro 8000 GPU (14Gbps).
 
I am worried Sony is going to come out too soon and Microsoft is going to outspec them.

It's one thing having the worse midgen refresh. Power doesn't matter so much because games are limited by the base consoles anyway. But having an underpowered base console, when all of your exclusive games are going to be limited by whatever runs on it for the next 6-7 years, seems like a mistake to me.
 
Last edited:

RaijinFY

Member
I am worried Sony is going to come out too soon and Microsoft is going to outspec them.

It's one thing having the worse midgen refresh. Power doesn't matter so much because games are limited by the base consoles anyway. But having an underpowered base console, when all of your exclusive games are going to have to work on it for the next 6-7 years seems like a mistake to me.

I doubt you will going to see much difference considering the processing power available.
 
Why are you so bothered if Xbox is stronger?, console warz shite?. Spencer already said they will never lose the power advantage again, so expect the next gen Xbox to be more powerful.
Well, if every new MS console ever released from now on is going to be more powerful than the Sony equivalent, maybe I should start thinking about switching sides...

But I don't know how Spencer is so sure about that.
 

Stuart360

Member
Well, if every new MS console ever released from now on is going to be more powerful than the Sony equivalent, maybe I should start thinking about switching sides...

But I don't know how Spencer is so sure about that.
Well you would have to be pretty naive if you think both Sony and Microsoft dont know exactly what each other are doing, especially when its the same company providing the tech for these consoles. leaks, Plants, slip of the tongue, friends, even money changing hands, these are all things that companies do to find out what the competition is doing
 

Toe-Knee

Member
Well, if every new MS console ever released from now on is going to be more powerful than the Sony equivalent, maybe I should start thinking about switching sides...

But I don't know how Spencer is so sure about that.
He is simply planning to release after. That's probably the reason the X a year after pro to offset the cycle and gain a leg up
 

Stuart360

Member
He is simply planning to release after. That's probably the reason the X a year after pro to offset the cycle and gain a leg up
Well imo they are both releasing in 2020, although i wouldn't be surprised if Sony was early 2020, and Microsoft late 2020.
 
Well imo they are both releasing in 2020, although i wouldn't be surprised if Sony was early 2020, and Microsoft late 2020.

I just can't see anyone releasing a console early in any year. This would mean a pre holiday reveal and unless prices were drastically cut it would kill that holiday season for them.
 

THE:MILKMAN

Member
I just can't see anyone releasing a console early in any year. This would mean a pre holiday reveal and unless prices were drastically cut it would kill that holiday season for them.

I agree for various reasons. Some cite the Switch but didn't that have literally zero games ready for the end of 2016 and TP devs didn't even get kits until around then too?
 
I agree for various reasons. Some cite the Switch but didn't that have literally zero games ready for the end of 2016 and TP devs didn't even get kits until around then too?

Yeah the Switch launched early in the year if I recall though I never bought one.

But selling a PS5 say in March would have to kill PS4 sales for that prior Xmas.

The Switch wasnt really replacing anything.
 

onQ123

Member
He is simply planning to release after. That's probably the reason the X a year after pro to offset the cycle and gain a leg up

But that's a never ending cycle because Xbox One X isn't selling enough to shift the tides & PS5 & Scarlet is already casting their shadows over it before it can even get a good install base.
 

onQ123

Member
so much VR, reminds me of when MS went with kinect 2.0 for the xbox one. too late to change i guess.

How? Kinect was bundled with Xbox One while VR is going to be sold to the people who want it, I guess y'all want to paint a picture of Sony cutting back on PS5 hardware for VR.
 

TeamGhobad

Banned
How? Kinect was bundled with Xbox One while VR is going to be sold to the people who want it, I guess y'all want to paint a picture of Sony cutting back on PS5 hardware for VR.

nah just the presentation had a lot of VR, kinda off putting and sending the wrong message.
 

TLZ

Member
nah just the presentation had a lot of VR, kinda off putting and sending the wrong message.
I wouldn't call it the wrong message. It's still pushing new tech that is gaming related.

I'm pretty sure that won't be their main message though. It'll be games as usual first and of course they'll want to try sell this to you, and it won't be forced on you like the Kinect was.
 

thelastword

Banned
Which are? Because to get 880GB/s with decent thermal you need HBM.... You won't get that with GDDR6.
24 GB's on a 384bit bus @ 18 GB/s is already 864 GB/s with a 12 chip config......32 GB on a 384 bit bus @ 18GB/s is already 1152 Gb/s with a 16 chip config.....The reason you can't see this happening is because you are looking at current GPU configurations and not thinking ahead...And yes that's GDDR6...FYI, Micron has been able to push GDDR6 at 20 GB/s as well......And all that by using less power than GDDR5/X......Don't look at current gen tech to determine what's coming tomorrow on new architecture or we'd still be sitting at 640kb of RAM a la (Bill Gates)...

Even HBM2 as we know it is already hitting 652 GB/s and up to 901/GB in certain configurations....HBM 3 is posied to double the memory bandwidth of HBM2 and guess what, HBM3 and DDR5 are slated for late 2019 or 2020 on the 7nm process, rings a bell?

All in all, we should understand, that if the consoles are using an APU setup, that it will share bandwidth across the CPU/GPU etc...
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Top Bottom