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Undertale |OT| Indie RPG with determination and spider bake sales

S

Sheriff_Battlesnake

Banned
Thank you everyone! I'm still a little... uhm... shaken at Toriels comments, but I actually chalk that up to what DNAbro said, it's a gray area. I doubt she wanted anyone to die, but waiting around giving people false hope and killing lost children is the worst of the worst. It sounds like she suggests going out and maiming adults would be better, in a way.

But yeah. it's a situation with no ultimate winners outside of the true ending. Either people are forced to despair underground or war breaks out and many people die.

I don't think she thinks killing out of the barrier is ideal, but it might have been necessary. Especially after his promise to his peeps.
 
M

mbpm1

Member
poutmeter said:
If Asgore took that first soul, he probably would have been able to remaining six without an issue. Asriel said he had enough power to destroy the whole village when all he had was Chara's soul.
Click to expand...

And he's doing that how? He goes outside and there are humans everywhere. Adult humans, with greater determination and mental strength. Being able to destroy his village isn't a big deal, that just makes him about equivalent to a human kid in terms of power considering what you're able to do throughout the game.
 
P

PSqueak

Banned
Sheriff_Battlesnake said:
Forgive some of my incessant posting, I am excitable and all. Feel free to engage of not, I just need a place to type stuff out and see if it sticks with others too. It kind of helps me.

Toriel kind of betrays her "Perfect Angel Goat Mom" status when she condemns Asgore for his plan. Yeah, she's essentiall chastising him for ever trying to harm children, but she's also chewing him out for not taking just one, leaving, collecting six more, and returning.

Honestly it sounds like she's upset at his lack of will, not that he ever committed a murder... just that he didn't commit it fast enough. He twiddled his thumbs and she left.

I'm getting mixed messages. Don't kill these poor children, but go out and collect six souls outside of the barrier? Is there a peaceful soul extraction? Like... borrowing one from the terminally ill? Also, if he had left wouldn't he have attempted another war? He may be cowardly and subjecting his subject to a miserable life, but isn't it for the greater good of everyone?

Hm. Maybe Toriel is just short sighted.
Click to expand...

Well, im gonna repeat myself a bit from waaaaay waaay back this thread.

She is criticising him for creating this narrative, he's blaming everything on the humans, comes with a plan to escape that the monsters are yearning for, but he really doesn't want to go through with it, he waited for humans to come and killed them, prolonguing the agony of monsters and letting their hate for humans grow, Toriel points out that Asgore never really wanted to go forward with the plan, because he didn't want to kill, if he really cared about freeing the monsters he'd have gone for 6 more souls the very moment he killed the first human, but he was too much of a pussy to do it, Toriel is calling him out for not calling off the plan when he realized he wouldn't do it and let it get to the point it got.

That said, Toriel is no saint, she left her people when they needed her the most, leaving an inept Asgore to make bad choices while she hid in her perfect little world where nothing changes and she can wash her hands from responsibility.
 
S

Sheriff_Battlesnake

Banned
PSqueak said:
Well, im gonna repeat myself a bit from waaaaay waaay back this thread.

She is criticising him for creating this narrative, he's blaming everything on the humans, comes with a plan to escape that the monsters are yearning for, but he really doesn't want to go through with it, he waited for humans to come and killed them, prolonguing the agony of monsters and letting their hate for humans grow, Toriel points out that Asgore never really wanted to go forward with the plan, because he didn't want to kill, if he really cared about freeing the monsters he'd have gone for 6 more souls the very moment he killed the first human, but he was too much of a pussy to do it, Toriel is calling him out for not calling off the plan when he realized he wouldn't do it and let it get to the point it got.

That said, Toriel is no saint, she left her people when they needed her the most, leaving an inept Asgore to make bad choices while she hid in her perfect little world where nothing changes and she can wash her hands from responsibility.
Click to expand...

Aaaaaaaaand that 100% clicks. Very great dissection.
I didn't see it as calling his bluff.
 
P

poutmeter

Member
mbpm1 said:
And he's doing that how? He goes outside and there are humans everywhere. Adult humans, with greater determination and mental strength. Being able to destroy his village isn't a big deal, that just makes him about equivalent to a human kid in terms of power considering what you're able to do throughout the game.
Click to expand...

One village at a time? :p

Frisk's powers/determination is probably not that common in humans. The monsters did manage to kill six humans without even using a single soul. If all humans were as capable as Frisk, any of the fallen would've messed around with resets and saves until they were able to leave the underground.

Honestly, I don't think Asgore and the rest of the monsters could win if an all-out war started, but since Asriel mentioned he could've killed a group of people with that one soul, I can't see how Asgore couldn't do the same. Asgore doesn't have to take on the whole human population, just a tiny village would suffice to gather enough souls to break the barrier. Then I guess he can do the killing while another monster takes the victim's soul, creating an army of "horrible beast with unfathomable power".

Humans would probably still kick their ass in the end.
 
N

NEO0MJ

Member
Speaking of, why didn't Asgore absorb any of the souls, especially on genocide? I mean Alphys doesn't need all of them to conduct her research on them.
Though I wonder how well they can control them. It doesn't seem like a monster just gets powered up when it shares a soul, it also shares its conscious with whoever it absorbed. And it seems that the more souls you absorb the more difficult it becomes to maintain control over them, especially human ones.
 
S

Syril

Member
NEO0MJ said:
Speaking of, why didn't Asgore absorb any of the souls, especially on genocide? I mean Alphys doesn't need all of them to conduct her research on them.
Though I wonder how well they can control them. It doesn't seem like a monster just gets powered up when it shares a soul, it also shares its conscious with whoever it absorbed. And it seems that the more souls you absorb the more difficult it becomes to maintain control over them, especially human ones.
Click to expand...
For normal routes, it's because he doesn't want to go through with his plan and would likely have only absorbed the souls once he had all seven when there would have been nothing else that he could say was holding it back. For genocide it's less clear, but it's possible that he didn't fully understand or believe the threat you represented. If he had survived a single blow from you he might have had a chance, but...
 
AdmiralMikey

AdmiralMikey

Member
luiztfc said:
Any good youtube/twitch
genocide
run? After finishing my
true pacifist
run, I can't do it the former.
Click to expand...

I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone. Do it yourself. Watching someone play any run of this game won't give you anywhere near the same feeling as doing it yourself.
 
P

PSqueak

Banned
AdmiralMikey said:
I'll tell you the same thing I tell everyone. Do it yourself. Watching someone play any run of this game won't give you anywhere near the same feeling as doing it yourself.
Click to expand...

I think the point is they don't want to feel that.

That said, just watching it will still make you feel like shit.
 
S

Sheriff_Battlesnake

Banned
Ludens said:
Gaster. Didn't know about Suzy. Do you have a good link with some kind of recap?
Click to expand...

Undertale 1.00 dialogue: very low chance of showing up. It has something to do with certain "fun" values.



Also, killing Undyne:

Ibm5K53.png


Fvp04NN.png






Undertale 1.001 update dialogue:
eiC0jl9l.png



I've seen a bit more here and there that I want to add, and some that I'm not entirely sure of that I might add... but for now, here you go!
 
P

Poltergust

Member
poutmeter said:
Frisk's powers/determination is probably not that common in humans. The monsters did manage to kill six humans without even using a single soul. If all humans were as capable as Frisk, any of the fallen would've messed around with resets and saves until they were able to leave the underground.
Click to expand...

The other humans had souls filled with something other than determination. I forgot some of them, but they include kindness, integrity, and bravery. The weapons and armor you get throughout the game formerly belonged to them (for example, the apron and frying pan belong to the kindness human).
 
M

mbpm1

Member
That's an interesting way of thinking about it. I guess that means other human traits need buffs or Determination is just OP
 
D

dLMN8R

Member
The spoiler tagging in this thread is ridiculous. The game has been out for months. Can the spoiler tags please stop already?
 
S

Syril

Member
poutmeter said:
Frisk's powers/determination is probably not that common in humans. The monsters did manage to kill six humans without even using a single soul. If all humans were as capable as Frisk, any of the fallen would've messed around with resets and saves until they were able to leave the underground.
Click to expand...
It's implied that the other humans could save and load like Frisk can, but possibly not reset completely. If you replay Toriel asking you about you about your flavor preference and she says she feels like she already knows you, she also says she felt the same way about the other humans who fell down. Also, if you tell Asgore how many times he's killed you, his reaction of nodding sadly/gravely/pitifully suggests that he'd heard that before from the other humans. It's possible that the other humans had retried against him so many times that eventually they gave up and let him trap their souls.
dLMN8R said:
The spoiler tagging in this thread is ridiculous. The game has been out for months. Can the spoiler tags please stop already?
Click to expand...

People who haven't finished the game post in this thread. I think the minor inconvenience of highlighting spoiler text is a fair tradeoff for being considerate.
 
D

DukeLongfellow

Member
Any advice on
beating Glyde? For some reason his attacks are really difficult to dodge and he isn't quite the easiest thing to encounter. It's a bit of a pain to go all the way from the save point to the cave. EDIT: The big snow flake attack in particular.
 
S

Sheriff_Battlesnake

Banned
Syril said:
It's implied that the other humans could save and load like Frisk can, but possibly not reset completely. If you replay Toriel asking you about you about your flavor preference and she says she feels like she already knows you, she also says she felt the same way about the other humans who fell down. Also, if you tell Asgore how many times he's killed you, his reaction of nodding sadly/gravely/pitifully suggests that he'd heard that before from the other humans. It's possible that the other humans had retried against him so many times that eventually they gave up and let him trap their souls.
Click to expand...

That is a great way to frame it. Sometimes I just need that last piece to *click.* I've been wracking my brain to what capacity Asgore knew about the SAVE/LOAD feature. He was in charge of the scientists, and Alphys look forward to surprising him. It could be assumed he has some knowledge. But considering the other children may have told him before... well, that would also give him a loose knowledge as well. Regardless, what happened in the Real Lab is locked. Flowey's save is after that. So at this point it's safe to assume Asgore's loose familiarity is implied, and it's not me just reaching.

Brazil said:
No. Be considerate of people who haven't played it yet.
Click to expand...

Yup, definitely people popping in here asking questions and looking for answers. I mean, we don't answer most of them. But as long as people are peeking in I think it's a very mild inconvenience.

and with patches come revived enthusiasm.
 
P

poutmeter

Member
Poltergust said:
The other humans had souls filled with something other than determination. I forgot some of them, but they include kindness, integrity, and bravery. The weapons and armor you get throughout the game formerly belonged to them (for example, the apron and frying pan belong to the kindness human).
Click to expand...

That I know, but I believe all humans possess determination -just not in equal amounts or as they primary trait. I mean, Alphys does extract determination from the captured souls to conduct her experiments.

Syril said:
It's implied that the other humans could save and load like Frisk can, but possibly not reset completely. If you replay Toriel asking you about you about your flavor preference and she says she feels like she already knows you, she also says she felt the same way about the other humans who fell down. Also, if you tell Asgore how many times he's killed you, his reaction of nodding sadly/gravely/pitifully suggests that he'd heard that before from the other humans. It's possible that the other humans had retried against him so many times that eventually they gave up and let him trap their souls.
Click to expand...

That makes a whole lot of sense. The previous humans had determination, just not enough to keep them going for however many times it would take to 'beat the game'. Asriel does say something along the lines of the player losing their grip on the world with each death, which would eventually result in their end.
 
G

Gradon

Member
Molemitts said:
Question about post-genocide playthroughs.
Click to expand...

Just started a new playthrough after Genocide and Flowey was at the beginning, so he's not dead no.

I have two questions to ask people, ones related to the patch and ones related to post-genocide / playthrough / endings.

Update / Patch related
Is the new lore stuff that was added easy to encounter? Or is it dig deep information?

Playthrough related
Is doing a Soulless Pacifist playthrough much different to a True Pacifist playthrough?
 
N

NEO0MJ

Member
dLMN8R said:
The spoiler tagging in this thread is ridiculous. The game has been out for months. Can the spoiler tags please stop already?
Click to expand...

If it's bothering you so much make a spoilers thread.

Gradon said:
playthrough related
Is doing a Soulless Pacifist playthrough much different to a True Pacifist playthrough?
Click to expand...

I think the only difference is a slight change at the end of the game.
 
E

Eusis

Member
Finally plowed through and got the Pacifist Neutral ending.

That was... that was something.

dLMN8R said:
The spoiler tagging in this thread is ridiculous. The game has been out for months. Can the spoiler tags please stop already?
Click to expand...
I admittedly haven't been looking in the thread BECAUSE of how long it's been out and the fact I needed to complete a normal run still, but this is definitely something where the shock of the twists and quirks matter.
 
S

Syril

Member
I lost my save from changing computers and had to start over and finally got the true ending again.

I didn't think it was going to get me as much the second time but it did.
 
N

No_Style

Member
Finally got around to playing and finishing the game. I think the takeaway for me was the fantastic soundtrack. Without it, I believe I would have had a tough time finishing it.
 
T

theMrCravens

Member
What a stupid final boss.
Final plot twist was excellent, but after that it was pure stupid.

Anyway, the dev(s) got major talent in some areas, so I can't wait to see their future project.
I'm just hoping it's a bit more professional, and has less of that "fan made" feel.
 
L

L95

Member
theMrCravens said:
What a stupid final boss.
Final plot twist was excellent, but after that it was pure stupid.

Anyway, the dev(s) got major talent in some areas, so I can't wait to see their future project.
I'm just hoping it's a bit more professional, and has less of that "fan made" feel.
Click to expand...

Which final boss did you fight? There are 3 different ones. I assume Flowey?
 
L

Lumine

Member
I just finished it. Neat game. I'm not as crazy about it as some I guess, but I still enjoyed it.

Anyway, what am I supposed to do now? The only person I killed was
Toriel (whom I guess is also the queen and the woman Sans spoke about.)
I kind of wish I knew, fighting her seemed to be the only way of progressing at the time. My savefile however puts me back right before
Asgore
again. Am I supposed to reset the game now and play it all over again
(and not kill Toriel this time or anything for that matter)?

I really wish I knew, I spared everyone else. :p

edit:
Was it even possible to die to Flowey at the end? :p
 
D

DNAbro

Member
Lumine said:
I just finished it. Neat game. I'm not as crazy about it as some I guess, but I still enjoyed it.

Anyway, what am I supposed to do now? The only person I killed was
Toriel (whom I guess is also the queen and the woman Sans spoke about.)
I kind of wish I knew, fighting her seemed to be the only way of progressing at the time. My savefile however puts me back right before
Asgore
again. Am I supposed to reset the game now and play it all over again
(and not kill Toriel this time or anything for that matter)?

I really wish I knew, I spared everyone else. :p

edit:
Was it even possible to die to Flowey at the end? :p
Click to expand...

There are two main things you can do now.
Pacifist- Kill nobody, definitely the recommended route cause there is more content and story to it.
or
Genocide- Kill literally everybody until enemies stop appearing. Very different in tone and what happens.

Also yes Flowey could kill you.
 
L

Lumine

Member
Thanks guys. Went ahead and reset my game. One of the very few games I keep playing right after I finished it. So I guess that definitely counts for something. Also I'm surprised how fast I'm already past
Toriel
again. Felt so much longer the first time. I'm glad though, means 2nd time through will be much quicker.

|I'm surprised you can actually die to Flowey at the end there then. I'm sure I kept getting hit even when I only had a sliver of health left but my health did not go down noticeably any further.
 
K

Kenai

Member
theMrCravens said:
Yeah, that one.
I assumed there were more than one finale, but to finish with that end really soured my experience with the game.
Click to expand...

the true ending is the Pacificst ending and imo much more satisfying, basically a continuation of where that ending (neutral) leaves off

Edit: Burgerpants will forever be one of my fav side characters due to his
Genocide gives-no-fucks dialogue
 
E

Eusis

Member
Ok, after my pacifist run I decided I'd redo it by being a true hero and
killing all the Glydes lurking just outside Snowdin. Just 4 more to go!
 
B

Breads

Banned
Sheriff_Battlesnake said:
Thank you everyone! I'm still a little... uhm... shaken at Toriels comments, but I actually chalk that up to what DNAbro said, it's a gray area. I doubt she wanted anyone to die, but waiting around giving people false hope and killing lost children is the worst of the worst. It sounds like she suggests going out and maiming adults would be better, in a way.

But yeah. it's a situation with no ultimate winners outside of the true ending. Either people are forced to despair underground or war breaks out and many people die.

I don't think she thinks killing out of the barrier is ideal, but it might have been necessary. Especially after his promise to his peeps.
Click to expand...

I took Toriel in a kind of different way.

Keep in mind that I consider what I am about to say part of her growth as a character in the backstory. That the Toriel we know now is Toriel after a story arc that we are told in parts but never see completely. My view is just based on my playthrough and whatever supplimentary material I happened by. I did not do a full script read of every possible ending/ dialogue so keep that in mind if I say something that is directly contradicted. I'm interpreting based on what my own experiance.

Long ago, possibly years in the past, Toriel and Asgore already knew that with one human soul a monster could pass through the barrier or use seven human souls to break it.

When the first human fell Toriel and Asgore saw an opportunity to free the monsters. Using the first human's soul a monster could cross barrier and bring more human souls back to finally break it.

They are leaders of their people and they were faced with a difficult decision and they talked about the possibility of this happening for the greater good of however Asgore did not commit to any plan. Instead of doing what needed to be done they saw their son innocently take the first human's soul across the barrier only to be mortally wounded before returning. Before dying Asriel did indeed return with the first human's soul which is when Asgore finally declared war on humanity.

In words alone.

Disgusted at the situation caused by Asgore's inaction she renounced her seat of power at Asgore's side and took to exiling herself in the ruins while Asgore just sat back and wait for more human souls to just chance by.

Distraught with the loss of her child she had a change of heart and sought instead to take care of anyone who falls through. She would rather tend to them and live out their lives in peace but if they decide that they want to leave she wants to make sure they are strong enough to beat Asgore before she lets them pass.
 
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