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[Watchtower]

You really should read up on the games on the Wii and PS3 platforms, so you don´t have to embarrass yourself with posts like this.

Spoiler

And also read up on on the DS while you are at it.

I really don't feel that embarressed but you are like the third person so far that's corrected me. It was an honest mistake. The update came from 123kinect.com and the Twitter message didn't specify.

Spoiler

(and thanks I do enough reading on the DS to know it's in no way shape or form the new PS2.)

 

[painful fart]

I really don't feel that embarressed ...

You should.

Your blatant Microsoft ass-licking would make both Bill Gates and Eminem blush.

 

[Watchtower]

You should.

Your blatant Microsoft ass-licking would make both Bill Gates and Eminem blush.

Wow. My first ignore.

 

[painful fart]

Wow. My first ignore.

You are welcome!

 

[donny2112]

The DS is not this gen's PS2. There is no PS2 this gen for the U.S. market. Wii would've been the closest, but it didn't get the support. Maybe if Kinect really brings in a lot of the PS2/Wii userbase, 360 might be able to turn the corner toward PS2-level software sales, though. 3DS is starting with a lot of the right support, but we'll see how it does. Western devs are still very lacking on the system.

In Japan, DS greatly outpaced PS2 in software sales, but there was still a significant lack of frontline support in Japan from third-parties, probably due to the hardware tech. This gen in Japan, 3DS seems to be correcting that hardware deficiency, so maybe it'll get up there. We've never seen a console with PS1/PS2-level third-party support and Nintendo first-party support. Will be interesting to see if 3DS changes that in Japan.

 

[Watchtower]

The DS is not this gen's PS2. There is no PS2 this gen for the U.S. market. Wii would've been the closest, but it didn't get the support. Maybe if Kinect really brings in a lot of the PS2/Wii userbase, 360 might be able to turn the corner toward PS2-level sales, though. 3DS is starting with a lot of the right support, but we'll see how it does. Western devs are still very lacking on the system.

In Japan, DS greatly outpaced PS2 in software sales, but there was still a significant lack of frontline support in Japan from third-parties, probably due to the hardware tech. This gen in Japan, 3DS seems to be correcting that hardware deficiency, so maybe it'll get up there. We've never seen a console with PS1/PS2-level third-party support and Nintendo first-party support. Will be interesting to see if 3DS changes that in Japan.

I'm still trying to figure out when we decided portables = consoles.

 

[Zoe]

I see thanks. Still pretty crazy to see the sales of these casual titles. Who would have thought the market could support so many different dance and fitness games.

Casual market not so casual when it comes to game buying?

Zumba is just the latest fad in the group exercise world. It will go the way of Tae Bo soon enough.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

We've never seen a console with PS1/PS2-level third-party support and Nintendo first-party support.

SNES?

 

[RedStep]

You are welcome!

Kids, save that stuff for recess.

 

[Version 3.0]

SNES?

Certainly. NES arguably even more so.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

I'm still trying to figure out when we decided portables = consoles.

Portables don't exactly follow the same rules as consoles but I don't see why we can't say the next PS2 can't be a handheld. Why do you feel portables and consoles can't be talked about as equals?

 

[Watchtower]

Portables don't exactly follow the same rules as consoles but I don't see why we can't say the next PS2 can't be a handheld. Why do you feel portables and consoles can't be talked about as equals?

Because when you say the next PS2...that means the next console gaming system with leading third party developer support.

Go grab anyone off the street that owned a PS2 and put a DS in his hand and tell him this is the successor to it. See the reaction you will get.

Why not just continue to say the DS is the next GameBoy, which is actually the truth, and just leave it at that? I mean why not just call the IPad a laptop, or the laptop a desktop and and heck while we're at it a motorcycle might as well be a scooter and a scooter a bicycle. They are all modes of transportation.

 

[MrNyarlathotep]

Why not just continue to say the DS is the next GameBoy, which is actually the truth, and just leave it at that? I mean why not just call the IPad a laptop, or the laptop a desktop and and heck while we're at it a motorcycle might as well be a scooter and a scooter a bicycle. They are all modes of transportation.

So... you're saying the PS3 is the next PS2?

Spoiler

I know you're not. Your definition for 'the next ps2' is so laughably narrow that you are preselecting the 360 as your choice through your criteria. Even when most of the thinsg that made the PS2 the PS2 don't apply to the 360

 

[Watchtower]

So... you're saying the PS3 is the next PS2?

Uhm....in the simplest possible way of looking at it? Yeah, last time I checked.

 

[Watchtower]

So... you're saying the PS3 is the next PS2?

Spoiler

I know you're not. Your definition for 'the next ps2' is so laughably narrow that you are preselecting the 360 as your choice through your criteria. Even when most of the thinsg that made the PS2 the PS2 don't apply to the 360

Nice edit. My definition isn't narrow. My definition is the same as has generally been accepted around here. The PS2 to most Gaffers and gamers alike = the best consoles if you wanted the best library of console games.

PS: I guess you don't know shit about what I think. And btw, my criteria didn't "preselect" the 360. It very much includes the PS3, and I would argue they are both better than the PS2 in that aspect considering there are less exclusives and timed-exclusives from third parties. The 360 just happened to be the first one to reach the mass market and take the lead of third party developer support due to its price and head start.

 

[test_account]

Nice edit. My definition isn't narrow. My definition is the same as has generally been accepted around here. The PS2 to most Gaffers and gamers alike = the best consoles if you wanted the best library of console games.

PS: I guess you don't know shit about what I think.

Between the PS3 and the Xbox 360 games, i would say that they have a pretty equal library in general both when it comes to the selection of games and 3rd party support. I havnt followed this discussion though, so i dont know what criterias people have mentioned what made the PS2 the PS2.

 

[Lord_Byron28]

Because when you say the next PS2...that means the next console gaming system with leading third party developer support.

Go grab anyone off the street that owned a PS2 and put a DS in his hand and tell him this is the successor to it. See the reaction you will get.

Why not just continue to say the DS is the next GameBoy, which is actually the truth, and just leave it at that? I mean why not just call the IPad a laptop, or the laptop a desktop and and heck while we're at it a motorcycle might as well be a scooter and a scooter a bicycle. They are all modes of transportation.

I guess people have different definitions. I and others' say the 'next PS2' as defined as the dominant competitor with a huge library from 1st and 3rd party, Japan and the west. Not defined as the next console or just a very popular console but a hardware that clealry dominates over it's competitors in sales, quantity and quality of games that appealed to the majority of gamers. The PS2 had FPS, RPG, platformers, adventures, puzzle, action, fighters and casual fans. That's my definition.

DS and Wii had that massive popularity similarly to the PS2. DS got a huge RPG and japanese oriented games that were big on the PS2. 360 and PS3 have a great library from 3rd party software but not that level of dominance that the PS2 did.

 

[Watchtower]

I guess people have different definitions. I and others' say the 'next PS2' as defined as the dominant competitor with a huge library from 1st and 3rd party, Japan and the west. Not defined as the next console or just a very popular console but a hardware that clealry dominates over it's competitors in sales, quantity and quality of games that appealed to the majority of gamers. The PS2 had FPS, RPG, platformers, adventures, puzzle, action, fighters and casual fans.

For as long as I have been talking videogames, even on GAF, consoles hand hand helds have been kept separate in such discussions and even when it comes to sales the majority of the gaming industry keeps them separate.

And that's pretty much what I have been saying all along and always viewed it as the most important aspect that defined the PS2. I don't know about you, but I would argue the biggest reason most gamers bought a PS2 was that, and not because of sales threads. Which is where I fail to see the Wii fitting that bill.

 

[Watchtower]

Between the PS3 and the Xbox 360 games, i would say that they have a pretty equal library in general both when it comes to the selection of games and 3rd party support. I havnt followed this discussion though, so i dont know what criterias people have mentioned what made the PS2 the PS2.

Yes they do. To do a short recap: Uhm...there's a few people that are arguing that the Wii and DS are the best examples of the successors to the PS2 and have won that argument by default because there were a larger number of them.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

I'm still trying to figure out when we decided portables = consoles.

Donny didn't say we did, he said Japan essentially did. And for the most part that's true.

 

[Watchtower]

Donny didn't say we did, he said Japan essentially did. And for the most part that's true.

So then how does that make him more right to make that statement than I am to make mine in an NPD thread? Btw, it wasn't donny it was StevieP that made that statement which is what started the argument, and it wasn't a specific reference to Japan.

 

[mujun]

Isn't the DS the next Gameboy or Gameboy Advance?

There is something fundamentally different about handheld and home console gaming to me.

The DS is not this gen's PS2. There is no PS2 this gen for the U.S. market. Wii would've been the closest, but it didn't get the support. Maybe if Kinect really brings in a lot of the PS2/Wii userbase, 360 might be able to turn the corner toward PS2-level software sales, though. 3DS is starting with a lot of the right support, but we'll see how it does. Western devs are still very lacking on the system.

In Japan, DS greatly outpaced PS2 in software sales, but there was still a significant lack of frontline support in Japan from third-parties, probably due to the hardware tech. This gen in Japan, 3DS seems to be correcting that hardware deficiency, so maybe it'll get up there. We've never seen a console with PS1/PS2-level third-party support and Nintendo first-party support. Will be interesting to see if 3DS changes that in Japan.

Donny, what are "PS2 level software sales", if you wouldn't mind clarifying?

How close are the three current gen consoles?

 

[Version 3.0]

Nice edit. My definition isn't narrow. My definition is the same as has generally been accepted around here. The PS2 to most Gaffers and gamers alike = the best consoles if you wanted the best library of console games.

PS: I guess you don't know shit about what I think.

I think everyone gets what you're saying. I certainly do. I don't see why everyone's jumping on you like you said something nuts.

On the other hand, it's true: none of the 3 consoles really fit the PS2's mold. The Wii has sales that roughly match it, although they started higher and look like they might taper off more quickly. That's clear, factual proof of what a lot of people think. But the Wii clearly doesn't have the continuation of many of the PS2's hit franchises or (decent) support from many developers. The PS3 would be the obvious choice, except that it's drastically underperformed and so many franchises have become non-exclusive. The 360 is kind of left by default. It has the best-selling versions of a lot of last gen's hit franchises, and some new ones as well. But it's still no PS2. What the PS2 had is fragmented.

So, sure, a lot of people's answer to that question might be the 360. But the market is so compartmentalized now, you might be surprised: to the general public, the answer might be the Wii (or yes, DS). Some people might go off the wall and say the iPhone. Some might say Steam. I'm sure a lot would say PS3 because, duh, it's one number higher.

I know what you're trying to say. But I think you're taking that answer for granted, too.

 

[Watchtower]

I think everyone gets what you're saying. I certainly do. I don't see why everyone's jumping on you like you said something nuts.

On the other hand, it's true: none of the 3 consoles really fit the PS2's mold. The Wii has sales that roughly match it, although they started higher and look like they might taper off more quickly. That's clear, factual proof of what a lot of people think. But the Wii clearly doesn't have the continuation of many of the PS2's hit franchises or (decent) support from many developers. The PS3 would be the obvious choice, except that it's drastically underperformed and so many franchises have become non-exclusive. The 360 is kind of left by default. It has the best-selling versions of a lot of last gen's hit franchises, and some new ones as well. But it's still no PS2. What the PS2 had is fragmented.

So, sure, a lot of people's answer to that question might be the 360. But the market is so compartmentalized now, you might be surprised: to the general public, the answer might be the Wii (or yes, DS). Some people might go off the wall and say the iPhone. Some might say Steam. I'm sure a lot would say PS3 because, duh, it's one number higher.

I know what you're trying to say. But I think you're taking that answer for granted, too.

Well let's just get something clear, I never said 360. I actually said PS3/360, or the HD consoles in general. That was just some dude putting words in my mouth because I happen to be an Xbox fan first and foremost.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

Certainly. NES arguably even more so.

I didn't mention the NES due the it's leading any other system ever in shovelware games. I'm not sure any other system comes close. While every system has it, NES was king of the hill. That's why I said SNES since it had more quality/crap ratio like the PS1 and PS2.

 

[test_account]

Yes they do. To do a short recap: Uhm...there's a few people that are arguing that the Wii and DS are the best examples of the successors to the PS2 and have won that argument by default because there were a larger number of them.

Ok, i see. The Wii and DS has seen a lot of games, but they (or at least the Wii, not that sure about DS) havnt gotten pretty much every big-titled game like the PS2 did. I guess it depends on how people define what made the PS2 into what it was/is

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

So then how does that make him more right to make that statement than I am to make mine in an NPD thread?

I don't understand the question? How's donny right, or have the right to say what did (and you not/do not?)?

 

[Balb]

I didn't mention the NES due the it's leading any other system ever in shovelware games. I'm not sure any other system comes close. While every system has it, NES was king of the hill. That's why I said SNES since it had more quality/crap ratio like the PS1 and PS2.

Are you sure about that? The PS2 and especially the PS1 have a TON of crap. Not to mention the Wii and DS.

 

[AniHawk]

Donny, what are "PS2 level software sales", if you wouldn't mind clarifying?

How close are the three current gen consoles?

Further, Sony said it currently has 10,828 titles available for the system and that 1.52 billion PS2 titles have been sold since launch.

ds software sales: 817.49 million
wii software sales: 695.37 million
360 software sales: 450+ million (no actual numbers on this one afaik)
ps3 software sales: 408.2 million
psp software sales: 241.4 million

 

[Watchtower]

I don't understand the question? How's donny right, or have the right to say what did (and you not/do not?)?

Well I just didn't see donny have words put in his mouth or be told he licks so much Nintendo ass that it makes Myiamoto blush for making his statement...see above.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

I didn't mention the NES due the it's leading any other system ever in shovelware games. I'm not sure any other system comes close. While every system has it, NES was king of the hill. That's why I said SNES since it had more quality/crap ratio like the PS1 and PS2.

The Playstations had orders of magnitude more shovelware than NES, in both proportion and raw number. Famicom admittedly had a ton of crap, but Nintendo's strciter western guidelines (and release limits for 3rd party publishers) kept the American and European libraries quite a bit leaner. I'd say it's crap to gold ratio was better than basically any other leading console, SNES included.

 

[onipex]

The update came from 123kinect.com and the Twitter message didn't specify.

They must be reaching because most sales come from the Wii.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Further, Sony said it currently has 10,828 titles available for the system and that 1.52 billion PS2 titles have been sold since launch.

A word about "number of titles", this figure generally refers to number of region-title pairs so there aren't 10,828 distinct games since many appear in 3 regions and many more appear in 2. Not that 4500 unique titles or whatever the number may be is any less astonishing!

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Well I just didn't see donny have words put in his mouth or be told he licks so much Nintendo ass that it makes Myiamoto blush for making his statement...see above.

Oh. I think I understand now.

umad.gif

 

[Watchtower]

Oh. I think I understand now.

umad.gif

Nah. I expected it as a junior. Ignore list works for us too.

 

[Version 3.0]

Well let's just get something clear, I never said 360. I actually said PS3/360, or the HD consoles in general. That was just some dude putting words in my mouth because I happen to be an Xbox fan first and foremost.

There's nothing wrong with that view. I would certainly agree that a hell of a lot of developers and publishers WANT that to be the case, and have worked hard to make it so.

But I still say there is no single successor to the PS2's legacy. The market is very different now, much more fragmented and volatile, and expanding wildly in every direction.

...and if it makes you feel any better, though I also get where they're coming from, I'd never in a million years call the DS the PS2's successor. Japan would, but that's a narrow view.

 

[legend166]

These numbers don't take into account the fixed fee for each blu-ray master, last I heard it was quite a lot (more than 5000 euros iirc). Not that it makes a difference in the long run for Sony's margin, but it's the main reason why we almost never get anime blu-rays (outside of ghibli stuff) here in France, that fixed fee makes it almost impossible to make a profit for such a small market.

I wasn't aware of that. Interesting.

Either way, I think the point holds up. Blu-Rays will be lucrative for Sony. Like I said in that original post, all the research is a sunk cost. The money just flows in. But as charlequin said, I really don't think it will reach the heights of DVDs. They'll replace DVDs in the movie market, but for all other stuff, like as simple data storage products, no one really cares. How many people have Blu-Ray burners in their computers? How many people are buying blank Blu-Rays? With the rise of external HDDs, USB drives, cloud storage, etc, who's storing data on physical discs anymore?

I don't think it will at all make up for the money they lost on the PS3. I think there's no doubt Sony thought they could have their cake and eat it too. In their mind, they sure the PS3 as a sure thing and though "great, we can use it to leverage our new disc format, too!"

 

[mujun]

Further, Sony said it currently has 10,828 titles available for the system and that 1.52 billion PS2 titles have been sold since launch.

ds software sales: 817.49 million
wii software sales: 695.37 million
360 software sales: 450+ million (no actual numbers on this one afaik)
ps3 software sales: 408.2 million
psp software sales: 241.4 million

Do you have the info available so that you can align the PS2 with the others timeline-wise?

Edit: Almost forgot, thanks!

 

[evolution]

Damn PS2 was such a beast. There really is no equivalent this gen. Well I guess you could argue the DS, but no home console for sure.

 

[Version 3.0]

I didn't mention the NES due the it's leading any other system ever in shovelware games. I'm not sure any other system comes close. While every system has it, NES was king of the hill. That's why I said SNES since it had more quality/crap ratio like the PS1 and PS2.

I'd say that's arguable, too...the Playstations had at least their fair share of crap. And the 2600 would have to be a contender. After all, its shovelware crashed the console world.

 

[legend166]

When I think of 'the next PS2' I think of a console that combines fantastic hardware sales with an incredibly broad software library that manages to attract almost all the major demographics.

The PS2 did that.

I don't think any platform today does that. The closest is the DS, but it's missing the dudebro set. Probably due to the very nature of the platform, as they gravitate towards consoles over handhelds.

The 360/PS3 (up until very recently, and we'll have to see how it develops with Kinect) struggled to attract females and kids.

The Wii struggled to reach critical mass in the 16-34 male demographic, whilst being a hit in pretty much every other one.

 

[Game Guru]

Because when you say the next PS2...that means the next console gaming system with leading third party developer support.

Go grab anyone off the street that owned a PS2 and put a DS in his hand and tell him this is the successor to it. See the reaction you will get.

Why not just continue to say the DS is the next GameBoy, which is actually the truth, and just leave it at that? I mean why not just call the IPad a laptop, or the laptop a desktop and and heck while we're at it a motorcycle might as well be a scooter and a scooter a bicycle. They are all modes of transportation.

Well let's just get something clear, I never said 360. I actually said PS3/360, or the HD consoles in general. That was just some dude putting words in my mouth because I happen to be an Xbox fan first and foremost.

While I do agree that DS's sales and support are in line with the Game Boy/Game Boy Color and Game Boy Advance, your conclusion of the next PS2 is faulty. The next PS2 by your definition is the next console gaming system with leading third party developer support. While this rules out the Wii, it also rules out the 360 and PS3. Neither 360 or PS3 have leading third party support as most third-parties support both platforms equally. In my opinion, for there to be another console as prolific as the PS2, it must be a singular console with leading third party developer support.

 

[OldJadedGamer]

I'd say that's arguable, too...the Playstations had at least their fair share of crap. And the 2600 would have to be a contender. After all, its shovelware crashed the console world.

True, I guess I just remember having way more shovelware on my NES than any other system but maybe that's my hazy memories.

 

[Watchtower]

When I think of 'the next PS2' I think of a console that combines fantastic hardware sales with an incredibly broad software library that manages to attract almost all the major demographics.

The PS2 did that.

I don't think any platform today does that. The closest is the DS, but it's missing the dudebro set. Probably due to the very nature of the platform, as they gravitate towards consoles over handhelds.

The 360/PS3 (up until very recently, and we'll have to see how it develops with Kinect) struggled to attract females and kids.

The Wii struggled to reach critical mass in the 16-34 male demographic, whilst being a hit in pretty much every other one.

Yes but I would argue when most gamers think of the PS2 they think of Grand Theft Auto, Madden, Final Fantasy, Metal Gear Solid, Gran Turismo, etc...all for $299 and under. Only a tiny percentage of gamers actually think of any of the reasons mentioned in this thread(hint: this probably has something to do with why GAF always appears to miss when it comes to predicting the success of the next big thing).

Sales are a result of those things not a pre-requisite. It's always been that way. Not the other way around. Demographics were a result of the games for it. That's always been the case too. Games and price have always come first.

And if the Wii was $599 at launch it would have likely been a miserable failure.

 

[Version 3.0]

True, I guess I just remember having way more shovelware on my NES than any other system but maybe that's my hazy memories.

My personal experience was the opposite, but then I had so few NES games by comparison and tended to buy what I'd already played and enjoyed somewhere else, by either renting, visiting, or borrowing.

I'd think it would be very easy to buy uninformed in those early generations than in later ones...there were more and more sources of reviews and such as time went on. Even in the SNES era, I rarely saw a game in a store that I didn't already have some knowledge about.

 

[Curufinwe]

Well let's just get something clear... I happen to be an Xbox fan first and foremost.

Good to know.

 

[AniHawk]

Do you have the info available so that you can align the PS2 with the others timeline-wise?

Edit: Almost forgot, thanks!

ds is 6.25 years old, so that puts the ps2 numbers at q1 2006: 1079.9 billion
difference of 263.5m in ps2's favor

psp is 6.25 years old, so that puts ps2 numbers at q1 2006: 1079.9 billion
difference of 838.5m in ps2's favor

360 is 5.25 years old, so that puts ps2 numbers at q1 2005: 860 million
difference of... 410-360m in ps2's favor (ms isn't exactly forthcoming with stuff like total software sales recently)

wii is 4.25 years old, so that puts ps2 numbers at q1 2004: 611 million
difference is 84.4m in wii's favor

ps3 is 4.25 years old, so that puts ps2 numbers at q1 2004: 611 million
difference is 202.8m in ps2's favor

EDIT: i forgot that while the systems are x.5 years old, the numbers are from when they were x.25 years old. fixed.

 

[Watchtower]

While I do agree that DS's sales and support are in line with the Game Boy/Game Boy Color and Game Boy Advance, your conclusion of the next PS2 is faulty. The next PS2 by your definition is the next console gaming system with leading third party developer support. While this rules out the Wii, either 360 or PS3 have leading third party support as most third-parties support both platforms equally. In my opinion, for there to be another console as prolific as the PS2, it must be a singular console with leading third party developer support.

Edit...actually......

Fixed. And I agree.

 

[mujun]

ds is 6.25 years old, so that puts the ps2 numbers at q1 2006: 1079.9 billion
difference of 263.5m in ps2's favor

psp is 6.25 years old, so that puts ps2 numbers at q1 2006: 1079.9 billion
difference of 838.5m in ps2's favor

360 is 5.25 years old, so that puts ps2 numbers at q1 2005: 860 million
difference of... 410-360m in ps2's favor (ms isn't exactly forthcoming with stuff like total software sales recently)

wii is 4.25 years old, so that puts ps2 numbers at q1 2004: 611 million
difference is 84.4m in wii's favor

ps3 is 4.25 years old, so that puts ps2 numbers at q1 2004: 611 million
difference is 202.8m in ps2's favor

EDIT: i forgot that while the systems are x.5 years old, the numbers are from when they were x.25 years old. fixed.

Thank you very very much. Interesting stuff.

Would you agree that the PS3 is the only machine that looks like it can catch up? That's my grossly uninformed opinion based on those numbers.

 

[Watchtower]

Thank you very very much. Interesting stuff.

Would you agree that the PS3 is the only machine that looks like it can catch up? That's my grossly uninformed opinion based on those numbers.

Problem is the majority of the sales of third party titles are being quite evenly split between PS3 and 360. So it's going to be really hard for either one to ever reach those numbers(at least unless the casual market makes a huge impact in the last 2-3 years).

But I will wager that it's very likely their combined software numbers will outsell the PS2 by quite a large margin by the end of the generation and possibly the combined numbers of the PS2/Xbox as well(Remember the PS2 was still putting up decent hardware numbers, let alone software numbers last year so there's a long way for this generation to go).

What were the total software sales for Xbox and PS2?