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Sony Sacrificed the PlayStation 4 Camera to Beat Microsoft on Price

H

Hex

Banned
The camera will be as fine now as it would have been if it was included.
Devs can now focus on real games and game experiences then tacked on bullshit, and that is reality.
Some devs will still use the EYE, we already see it, even with indy developers,
Devs have added Kinect features into games like Skyrim and Mass Effect, but to be honest, and as much as I am sure many people will jump in and swear that they use it every day it is not a huge selling point and it is something very easily replicated by the Playstation 4 Eye in third party releases.
The Dead Rising 3 zombie listening? Can be done with the Playstation 4 eye.
Most things can.
Heart rate sensor? Deep skeleton sensing? Show me first.
Night vision? The IR feature is nice, but I do not see many if any devs making playing in the dark a requirement.
Again, look anywhere at the reaction to the price and the backlash for the Xbox forcing the Kinect and this is the right choice.
 
Q

quest

Not Banned from OT
Sony made the right call. The 50 dollars off is just huge to get under that 400 dollar price mark. If they included the EYE it would of improved MS value position. Also those who would love the Kinect or EYE are not going to buy at launch. They could still include it in all systems starting in the holiday season of 2015 for hopefully 299.99 with a couple old games. It is going to be a challenge for MS to justify the Kinect to the people who are buying at launch at 499.99. Should of had a 399.99 SKU with out kinect for 2 years until they could get a bundle at 299.99 to get the casuals on board.
 
D

Devilgunman

Member
Bundling PS Eye with PS4 will not force any innovation as long as it is optional to a standard controller. Look at Wiimote, please tell me how many games outside Nintendo successfully used it. Most of the Wii games didn't use motion control whatsoever even though it was the main functionality of the Wii. Just because it's there doesn't mean devs will jump into and make games for it.
 
R

Raoh

Member
works for me. I'm getting the camera anyway but its an overall wise decision.

This also removes the need to compete with Kinect blow for blow. If sony included the camera it would be a feature for feature system and game wise comparison that they may have lost.
 
B

BigDug13

Member
I feel like the Kinect is going to be this price anchor that will never let MS price their system to compete with Sony just like Blu-ray was an anchor that kept a price difference.
 
R

Randolph Freelander

Member
Vestal said:
good job in reading absolutely nothing of what i wrote and going with the canned response to anything involving Motion controls.. Really shows your colors..
Click to expand...

Everything you wrote can be done with a button. All I'm saying is buttons are good things. Talking to my television or waving at it are not.
 
jts

jts

...hate me...
Devilgunman said:
Bundling PS Eye with PS4 will not force any innovation as long as it is optional to a standard controller. Look at Wiimote, please tell me how many games outside Nintendo successfully used it. Most of the Wii games didn't use motion control whatsoever even though it was the main functionality of the Wii. Just because it's there doesn't mean devs will jump into and make games for it.
Click to expand...
Most good Wii games, 3rd party or not, successfully made use of the motion sensing and pointing abilities of the Wii remote.
 
E

Eurocult

Member
So glad it's not forced with the PS4. I'm all for choice. It's available for those who want it.

I also have an Xbone pre order open in hopes that they'll make Kinect optional before launch. Wishful thinking, I know.
 
Vestal

Vestal

Junior Member
Randolph Freelander said:
Everything you wrote can be done with a button. All I'm saying is buttons are good things. Talking to my television or waving at it are not.
Click to expand...

How the hell can you press a button and have it render your body in a 3d world??!?!

So you really think its easier to press a button and use a thumbstick to layout the movement of say some troops instead of using a pointing device(your hand).

How about being able to swing at a ball, and the game noticing the sort of spin you are putting on the ball as well as the amount of it?
 
I

Iacobellis

Junior Member
BigDug13 said:
I feel like the Kinect is going to be this price anchor that will never let MS price their system to compete with Sony just like Blu-ray was an anchor that kept a price difference.
Click to expand...

It's pretty crazy how now the PS3 is equal or cheaper than the 360.
 
O

Orca

Member
Randolph Freelander said:
Everything you wrote can be done with a button. All I'm saying is buttons are good things. Talking to my television or waving at it are not.
Click to expand...

If people think outside the box, there could be interesting stuff. Games could reflect the 'mood' of the room - making it important to play in the dark for stealth missions, or things like that.

People are way too quick to just write off Kinect/Eye as meaningless hardware.
 
C

Cutwolf

Member
It's really not pro Sony bias. I am a day 1 360 adopter and a day 1 kinect adopter. I didn't own a ps3 until a month ago.

Here are the main issues with which Microsoft must contend to make kinect a success, IMO:

- Can you make games that rely heavily on kinect that aren't just gimmicky, or will kinect be a tool to add convenience (say, audibling in madden) but not really add anything killer or that can't be kept in the game at little cost for the ps4 and those who bought the eye? My guess is the latter. Why? Who wants to stomp around their living room to move their mech suit? What can you do with kinect that is more than convenience but doesn't make playing a game turn into work?

- lowest common denominator. If xbone sells 50 million and ps4 sells 50 million and 20 million of those ps4 users buy pseye, developers have 3 choices: 1) make exclusively for Microsoft so they can go full speed on kinect (50 million max audience), 2) add in "better with kinect" features that also can work with pseye (70 million max audience, assuming for the sake of argument that the 30 million without the device just assume "better with" means required), or 3) ignore the devices and develop games as they would otherwise (100 million+ max audience, because you get both consoles and can port to pc to get pc gamers who likely won't bother with kinect). It is pretty obvious what Devs will do. The devs of games with the highest cost of development (AAA) will choose option 3. Devs of strictly console big budget games will choose option 2 or 3. Don't get me wrong, you'll end up with a few good first party games and some solid XBLA games that fully use kinect, but I don't see enough of those happening to really care much about kinect at this point.

- privacy concerns.

- buyers remorse on the first kinect. It's hard to get people back on board with a sequel to the shattered hopes known as kinect 1 that they see collecting dust on the shelves day in and day out.


What I do see happening is kinect 2 taking off for other applications (e.g. hacking it to have some comparability with Oculus Rift, or things completely unrelated to gaming). But as a boon to xbone gaming? I don't see it. Did msft really show off any killer kinect heavy games at e3? Everything I remember them showing was just convenience or cute but unnecessary features...correct me if I'm wrong.
 
Ploid 3.0

Ploid 3.0

Member
Randolph Freelander said:
I voted amongst myself. Buttons won 1-0.

Your vote might turn out differently. But setting that aside, thankfully, Sony isn't forcing that nonsense on me.
Click to expand...

Buttons rarely misunderstand your commands, take less energy, and can't cause you to slap your baby. The downside of voice and gesture command is that they cause you to be a bit loud at night, and said arm waving. It can be pretty cool for a bit though. It's the same with touch screens and controlling things like games. Buttons whip the dust off of touch controls.
 
C

Cutwolf

Member
Orca said:
If people think outside the box, there could be interesting stuff. Games could reflect the 'mood' of the room - making it important to play in the dark for stealth missions, or things like that.

People are way too quick to just write off Kinect/Eye as meaningless hardware.
Click to expand...

This is the gimmicky crap I'm talking about. So whenever I want to be stealthy I need to turn off my lights? Give me a break.
 
R

Randolph Freelander

Member
Vestal said:
How can you press a button and have it render your body in a 3d world??!?!

So you really think its easier to press a button and use a thumbstick to layout the movement of say some troops instead of using a pointing device(your hand).

How about being able to swing at a ball, and the game noticing the sort of spin you are putting on the ball as well as the amount of it?
Click to expand...

Well, if you're into that, get the system that might support that. I'm not into it. So because of that and for other reasons, my support of Microsoft stops here, and my support of Nintendo ended at GameCube. I, me, the big numero uno, like playing games seated firmly in my chair with a controller held comfortably in my hands attached to arms resting near my lap. Silently. I don't want any influence at all of motion in my games. None. I want no encouragement whatsoever for developers to add that to my games. I do not care to be rendered in a game. I do not find it the least bit interesting, do not believe it would add any value, any enjoyment, any immersiveness. Controllers are good enough for me and I don't care if they ever change. If that makes me an old man yelling at a cloud, I am absolutely fine with it. You take your motion sensing, voice hearing, heartbeat checking games and I hope you enjoy them. Have a blast. But I want no part of it.

So, again, I'm glad Sony isn't mandating that thing. This way developers can ignore it.
 
Z

Zaptruder

Banned
Randolph Freelander said:
Well, if you're into that, get the system that might support that. I'm not into it. So because of that and for other reasons, my support of Microsoft stops here, and my support of Nintendo ended at GameCube. I, me, the big numero uno, like playing games seated firmly in my chair with a controller held comfortably in my hands attached to arms resting near my lap. Silently. I don't want any influence at all of motion in my games. None. I want no encouragement whatsoever for developers to add that to my games. I do not care to be rendered in a game. I do not find it the least bit interesting, do not believe it would add any value, any enjoyment, any immersiveness. Controllers are good enough for me and I don't care if they ever change. If that makes me an old man yelling at a cloud, I am absolutely fine with it. You take your motion sensing, voice hearing, heartbeat checking games and I hope you enjoy them. Have a blast. But I want no part of it.

So, again, I'm glad Sony isn't mandating that thing. This way developers can ignore it.
Click to expand...

You sound so joyless.

"I know what I like, and I can't ever see myself changing from it!"
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Zaptruder said:
A simple example of how core games could've benefited with camera tech is through head tracking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ

Except you don't even have to attach the goofy IR reflector to get a similar result nowadays.

Would've helped quite nicely in racing games and FPS.
Click to expand...

I thought Kinnect 2 still had perceivable lag? In that case headtracking is...
 
Acrylic7

Acrylic7

Member
Smart move, a slight gamble though.

This pretty much destroys Sonys credibility for motion control games. We are probably going to get another PS move situation where developers are too afraid to develop or implement it because no one has it. Microsoft forces you to own one right out of the box so developers aren't as worried when they develop for it. Sony pretty much killed its chances of getting ports or potential exclusive software.

But $100 difference is a killer so I can totally see why they did it. Smart gamble.
I live in a fantasy world where Okami 2, Condemned 3, and Folklore 2 are built from the ground up for Move, so I cant help but get sad when I see this happen.

edit- they may miss out on potential features on 3rd party games as well, but that content is always weak.
 
U

Uno Venova

Banned
I kinda want to read what theories people came up with to entice gamers here a camera would enhance their experience with Kinect 1.
 
C

Cutwolf

Member
Acrylic7 said:
Smart move, a slight gamble though.

This pretty much destroys Sonys credibility for motion control games. We are probably going to get another PS move situation where developers are too afraid to develop or implement it because no one has it. Microsoft forces you to own one right out of the box so developers aren't as worried when they develop for it. Sony pretty much killed its chances of getting ports or potential exclusive software.

But $100 difference is a killer so I can totally see why they did it. Smart gamble.
I live in a fantasy world where Okami 2, Condemned 3, and Folklore 2 are built from the ground up for Move, so I cant help but get sad when I see this happen.

edit- they may miss out on potential features on 3rd party games as well, but that content is always weak.
Click to expand...

As I said before, the more likely outcome is developers only adding in optional convenience features that can be used with both kinect and pseye -- if they add anything. Wider install base. While you're right Sony will be unlikely to get motion control exclusives, I don't think you'll see many of those for either console.
 
R

RadarScope1

Member
upJTboogie said:
I kinda want to read what theories people came up with to entice gamers here a camera would enhance their experience with Kinect 1.
Click to expand...
Same here. When I get some time, I'd like to go through the threads from around the Kinect launch and read the hype.

This thread is going to be so juicy in 2-3 years.
 
R

Randolph Freelander

Member
Zaptruder said:
You sound so joyless.

"I know what I like, and I can't ever see myself changing from it!"
Click to expand...

On the contrary. I like the fact that I don't get bored with something just because it didn't change. For example, it's not me whining that the generation went on too long because graphics are out of date, or they didn't add a new weapon or a new graphical effect or some other meaningless thing. I don't need shiny new things to keep me interested.

Want my interest? Want to make progress with me? Want to "immerse" me in your world? Try telling a good story. Really. That, sprinkled in with some non-terrible gameplay, is about all it takes.
 
SenjutsuSage

SenjutsuSage

Halo TV Series Promoter - Live from: Reach
Good decision by Sony, but I think it was wise for Microsoft to include Kinect. It makes no sense at this point to go with a model that doesn't include Kinect after all the investments they've made into the technology. I much rather they include it across all models and hope for devs to do amazing things, rather than have it sold separately and hope that adoption of the tech leads to devs doing something with it.

To me, Kinect is an extra feature that I'm interested in and I want. I don't want crappy games that force it down my throat, but I wouldn't mind a few subtle ways to add something extra to existing game ideas.
 
S

Sky Chief

Member
Microsoft isn't showing Kinect 2.0 much support. Ryse and Crimson Dragon are now playable with a regular controller and no longer Kinect show pieces. There is a reason for that. At least Sony has the foresight not to sink themselves with a mandatory camera that has little to no gaming potential.
 
M

Minions

Member
They could make the old playstation eyes work ( from PS3 with at least minimal functionality) if they really cared. I don't see any reason they could not make it work if they wanted to.

Sony can always bundle the camera in some offerings after launch, the same way the kinect was this generation.
 
V

Vilam

Maxis Redwood
Zaptruder said:
A simple example of how core games could've benefited with camera tech is through head tracking.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9wXx3vMy_AQ

Except you don't even have to attach the goofy IR reflector to get a similar result nowadays.

Would've helped quite nicely in racing games and FPS.
Click to expand...

Why would I ever want to do this when the screen that I'm viewing the game on isn't moving with me? That isn't immersive, that isn't realistic... it's just an alternate control method that doesn't work as well as a simple analog stick or mouse.
 
S

Suikoguy

I whinny my fervor lowly, for his length is not as great as those of the Hylian war stallions
Vilam said:
Why would I ever want to do this when the screen that I'm viewing the game on isn't moving with me? That isn't immersive, that isn't realistic... it's just an alternate control method that doesn't work as well as a simple analog stick or mouse.
Click to expand...

Seriously, add in a bit of lag and it would be jarring.

Now Occulus Rift on the other hand...
 
H

Hex

Banned
Orca said:
If people think outside the box, there could be interesting stuff. Games could reflect the 'mood' of the room - making it important to play in the dark for stealth missions, or things like that.

People are way too quick to just write off Kinect/Eye as meaningless hardware.
Click to expand...

I think inside the box, the box is bigger on the inside.
I agree that people dismiss it too easily, and I look forward to dabbling in it and I will be buying the Eye, most likely in the first week if not day one and it is good to be able to choose
I also have Move, I also have Kinect., and a Wii.
As we have seen after this E3 choice is King. People wanted to choose what to do with their games, they wanted to choose if they would be online. This is choice.
Gimmicks are a double edge, it is also too easy for devs to let gimmicks ruin games or try to sell complete shit with some high tech gimmick.
I swear we had these conversations when the Wii was released.
 
G

GodofWine

Member
Regarding headtracking as a use for camera's , as applied to racing games.

On the surface, yea, Im on board, sounds great...BUT...if I turn my head to look out of the side window, then Im not looking at my TV anymore?

I.e., Any minor movements wouldn't be worth it since it wont alter the view much, but looking "left" to see if my opponent is at my door and preventing me from taking a blocking line wouldn't work since while my "Drivatar" (ha ha) is looking where I need them too, Im looking at my wall like a boob..no?
 
G

Garrett 2U

Member
Head tracing for views is something I didn't think of.
That is something that can probably be added to every game relatively easily and have a huge payoff.

GodofWine said:
I.e., Any minor movements wouldn't be worth it since it wont alter the view much, but looking "left" to see if my opponent is at my door and preventing me from taking a blocking line wouldn't work since while my "Drivatar" (ha ha) is looking where I need them too, Im looking at my wall like a boob..no?
Click to expand...

You know that stuff can be scaled right? It doesn't have to be 1:1 haha
 
G

GodofWine

Member
Garrett 2U said:
You know that stuff can be scaled right? It doesn't have to be 1:1 haha
Click to expand...

Yea, ha ha??? , but then it gets twitchy...and unless you have a hans device ;) along with your wheel, natural headsway may be over interpreted. I know my head is always leaning, twisting etc, while playing racing games. Glancing at the course map would turn your drivers head 180 degrees.

I dunno, seems easy on the surface, but nightmarish to balance.
 
S

satam55

Banned
I think Sony will release a bundle with the PS4 Camera, "Knack" or "Driveclub", & PS+ trial for $500 to attract the family/broad mainstream audience.
 
B

border

Member
satam55 said:
I think Sony will release a bundle with the PS4 Camera, "Knack" or "Driveclub", & PS+ trial for $500 to attract the family/broad mainstream audience.
Click to expand...

That sounds like a strategy that is okay at best, assuming that motion games never really break out of their dance/fitness/minigame heritage. Which at this point does seem like a pretty fair assumption. They can offer the PSEye for people that want Just Dance, and nobody else has to deal with it. Guitar Hero and Rock Band were pretty big sensations, even though their requisite peripherals were not bundled with any consoles.
 
M

Minions

Member
satam55 said:
I think Sony will release a bundle with the PS4 Camera, "Knack" or "Driveclub", & PS+ trial for $500 to attract the family/broad mainstream audience.
Click to expand...

Driveclub is already included (most of it anyway) with a PS+ subscription. The PS+ edition may not have all cars, or all the tracks. All the gameplay is there with quite a few tracks (apparently).
 
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