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Sony Sacrificed the PlayStation 4 Camera to Beat Microsoft on Price
- Thread starter Poetic.Injustice
- Start date
I think what people have failed to mention is that Sony not including the camera is kind of big blow to Microsoft (aside from it contributing to a difference in price).
Depending on who you ask, the Kinect sold 24-27 million units. And yet the reason they claim it was poorly supported by developers is because of the low install base. The original Xbox didn't even sell 27 million units, and it still somehow got support! There are probably no more than 30-35 million XBL Gold subscribers, yet developers still support online multiplayer. The 360 Kinect platform had more than enough of an installed base to merit interest from developers. The reason the Kinect doesn't get support is because it has very narrow, limited applications and isn't useful with the vast majority of genres and gametypes.
But fine - you win. Let's pretend that it's true that the Kinect just didn't sell enough, and if it had then more games would have been made. If 24 million Kinects sold was not enough to merit developer support, then how many units does the Xbox One have to sell before developers start supporting Kinect 2.0? How long will it take them to get to 25+ million consoles sold? Years, at best. And when they do reach this magical plateau of sales where developers finally think it's worth supporting, where will Sony's sales be at? Will it be worth abandoning Sony's audience just to make Kinect-centric games?
Having no motion-control option out of the box on PS4 ultimately hurts the chance that anyone will make motion controlled games (whether it be Kinect OR Move). If Sony's lower price puts them in a significant worldwide lead in sales, there's not much chance that people will want to start making Xbox One-exclusive Kinect titles.
It's kinda funny when you think about -- a lot of Microsoft's strategy basically depended on Sony doing exactly as they did. They hoped or assumed Sony would institute DRM, and also hoped or assumed Sony would continue exploring motion control. Neither of those things happened, and as a result things are kind of in disarray.
Depending on who you ask, the Kinect sold 24-27 million units. And yet the reason they claim it was poorly supported by developers is because of the low install base. The original Xbox didn't even sell 27 million units, and it still somehow got support! There are probably no more than 30-35 million XBL Gold subscribers, yet developers still support online multiplayer. The 360 Kinect platform had more than enough of an installed base to merit interest from developers. The reason the Kinect doesn't get support is because it has very narrow, limited applications and isn't useful with the vast majority of genres and gametypes.
But fine - you win. Let's pretend that it's true that the Kinect just didn't sell enough, and if it had then more games would have been made. If 24 million Kinects sold was not enough to merit developer support, then how many units does the Xbox One have to sell before developers start supporting Kinect 2.0? How long will it take them to get to 25+ million consoles sold? Years, at best. And when they do reach this magical plateau of sales where developers finally think it's worth supporting, where will Sony's sales be at? Will it be worth abandoning Sony's audience just to make Kinect-centric games?
Having no motion-control option out of the box on PS4 ultimately hurts the chance that anyone will make motion controlled games (whether it be Kinect OR Move). If Sony's lower price puts them in a significant worldwide lead in sales, there's not much chance that people will want to start making Xbox One-exclusive Kinect titles.
It's kinda funny when you think about -- a lot of Microsoft's strategy basically depended on Sony doing exactly as they did. They hoped or assumed Sony would institute DRM, and also hoped or assumed Sony would continue exploring motion control. Neither of those things happened, and as a result things are kind of in disarray.
Having one attached to every console will open the door for devs to include Kinect functionality in core games, not just the gimmicky bullshit.
Its the only thing left separating the two consoles, now that MS pulled a 180 on the all digital thing. Do you guys really want two next gen systems that are basically the same? Im glad MS is doing something different here.
Its the only thing left separating the two consoles, now that MS pulled a 180 on the all digital thing. Do you guys really want two next gen systems that are basically the same? Im glad MS is doing something different here.
Most 3rd party developers will want to make multi-platform games, and making Kinect integral to the experience means they won't be able to do a PS4 version.
Fredrik
Member
Bad decision imo, it'll be the Move situation all over again for Sony while MS will have the Wii situation, if you know what I mean. And the price difference won't even matter in the long run.
No PS Eye/Move tech included plus an added online paywall actually makes the PS4 less attractive than Xbox One even with the lower price now that the DRM is gone, imo. The only real advantage Sony have left is the touchpad, which they have just barely showed off in games so far.
No PS Eye/Move tech included plus an added online paywall actually makes the PS4 less attractive than Xbox One even with the lower price now that the DRM is gone, imo. The only real advantage Sony have left is the touchpad, which they have just barely showed off in games so far.
Syphon Filter
Member
no one here wants the camera. sony will be ahead due to worldwide appeal.
Phoenician_Viking
Banned
The PS4 OS is designed to support it. Developers only have to implement control interfaces and that´s it.
SolidSnakex
Member
The Wii was $250 when it launched, which pretty much means that it launched at the sweet spot for the mainstream audience that helped motion control gaming take off. On the other hand the Xbox One is launching at $500.
I don't actually know what you mean. Do you really expect the Kinect to have a similar level of success, attention and engagement as the Wii? Even at $500? Even with only a couple launch titles that significantly, materially support its functionality?
Randolph Freelander
Member
Wii also had the $249 situation, if you know what I mean.
And the Wii fell off a cliff after 3 years. That audience has moved on. We don't know that the Kinect audience won't do the same.
It couldn't hurt to give folks the option of the full version of "DriveClub", especially since they're still gonna sell the full version of the game at retail for $60.
It seems like the Kinect audience has already moved on. Nothing with a Kinect focus charts on NPD, or makes much of a press/social media blip.
The courting of casuals is a little confusing to me, since you're essentially wanting to draw in an audience that doesn't buy that many games to start with. Unless you're capable of establishing mega-franchises like Nintendo, you're playing a losing game. It takes a Nintendo-caliber game to make those people buy a boxed $50-60 game, and few developers can really produce Nintendo-caliber games.
TheDarkKnight774
Member
Good. They also sacrificed extra game controllers to get the price down.
Ill buy it if its worth it, and being an accessory isn't the sign of death. If there's demand the features will come. Or I wonder for multi plats they'll throw them in if they're already doing something similar with the Kinnect.
Ill buy it if its worth it, and being an accessory isn't the sign of death. If there's demand the features will come. Or I wonder for multi plats they'll throw them in if they're already doing something similar with the Kinnect.
Fredrik
Member
It's all about having the tech there, in every box, in every home, vs only having it with those who like camera/motion games and buys the accessory. For the devs it'll be as easy as using a trigger button, they won't have to build a whole game for the tech, they can use it in a more simplistic and natural way without either scaring away core gamers or having to make the use of the tech justify an accessory purchase.
iamshadowlark
Banned
Im pretty sure most of the response for mandatory kinect has been negative. A no I don't mean just among us forum browsers. Second paragraph reads like some terrible spin.
krypt0nian
Banned
Since the reveal, SONY seemingly cannot do anything wrong. It's like they learned a lesson or something.
la flama blanca
Banned
if devs haven't really done shit with the first Kinect, I really don't think you'll see sure very practical necessary applications on this console
InsaneLuchador
Member
Cheaper, less crap to set up, one less gimmick to shove down our throats. Thanks Sony.
As I've already written though, the first Kinect sold 24-27 million units. If developers won't support a userbase that large, then where does that leave the Xbox One, which won't sell that many units in the first 2-3 years of its life? Sure, they will be able to offer Kinect features for 100% of the userbase, but if the userbase is only 5-10 million people that doesn't really matter. And it gets even worse if you consider that to significantly support Kinect, they will have to make a game that cannot easily be ported to PS4 (which in all likelihood will have a userbase that is as large or larger than the Xbox One). It's going to largely be the duty of Microsoft-published games to use and justify Kinect, and what we've seen so far doesn't really do that. They've seemingly even yanked Kinect support from Ryse and Crimson Dragon.
If the tech is used in a simplistic way, then it doesn't really translate into an advantage for Microsoft. Voice commands or tiny occasional gestures won't make that much of a difference. The Wii packed in its motion controller, but 3rd party support for it was mostly perfunctory or unimaginative.
Fredrik
Member
Accessory games is usually crap, one or two games might be okay if they're first party and they really really want you to buy the accessory, but third party core devs usually don't bother with it. It'll obviously be different this time. You'll see tiny, smarter, better ways of using the tech, both in games and system UI.
travisbickle
Member
Third party will be split between Xbone and PS4, the camera will be an accessory in that sense.
That's ultimately the problem. Developers cannot significantly support motion controls or voice commands unless they want to make an Xbox One exclusive game. And with budgets spiraling out of control, who wants to limit themselves to just one platform?
flamingotripod
Member
I dont get if Sony is making the camera optional, why have the lightbar on every single PS4 controller? Since most of the PS4 users wont get the camera, wont the bar just be wasting the controllers battery since it has no use without the camera? It will just be wasted space that Sony could have used to make the controller slimmer.
I see this happening, but after E3 this next year.
I see you can predict the future. That's awesome. Once bundles come out with the camera (after the PS4 gets it's sales lead) then adoption will be as high (or higher) than the kinect this gen.
I plan to pick up a camera once I can find it for $30~ (assuming I see some split screen games come out). The fact you can swap spots and have the split screen change sides is pretty awesome.
It is all a devious plan to suck the batteries dry even faster!!!
Considering the DS3 already had an LED lit all the time, it should be the same battery drained. Color should still signify what control (1,2,3,4) is connected just like on the DS3.
LED lights don't use that much power and can probably be turned off. I assume that power consumption will be less of an issue if the controllers have rechargeable batteries.
The green LED on the 360 controller was always-on as well, wasn't it?
davepoobond
you can't put a price on sparks
We're not going to the first year. It is very polarizing in the core crowd and no one will want to use it for games anyway.
My reaction is the same as most everyone else's in this thread, but we're not Kinect consumers, for the most part.
Also, think a few generations down the line. Microsoft is not going to stop the Kinect at this point, and the Illumiroom is an example of the direction they're heading. I will not be surprised at all to see their next generation come with a much more advanced Kinect and some sort of spatial 3d support, whether it's Illumiroom-like or Oculus Rift-like. The investment in the Kinect is not just for this generation - it's a proprietary experience that sets it apart from PC gaming, and that's what consoles are going to need in the next couple generations.
Also, think a few generations down the line. Microsoft is not going to stop the Kinect at this point, and the Illumiroom is an example of the direction they're heading. I will not be surprised at all to see their next generation come with a much more advanced Kinect and some sort of spatial 3d support, whether it's Illumiroom-like or Oculus Rift-like. The investment in the Kinect is not just for this generation - it's a proprietary experience that sets it apart from PC gaming, and that's what consoles are going to need in the next couple generations.
killer rin
Member
The green led was always on (when the controller was on), but it was one extremely tiny LED Light compared to the gigantic one in the DS3.
I think the sales thing is a huge influencer. There is a large difference when you compare 70 Million consoles sold to 26 Million Kinects sold. Knowing that, who in their right mind wouldn't make games that would sell to the much larger pie. For every Kinect Feature they would have added, thats another sale lost because someone didn't want to buy kinect.
Maximilian E.
AKA MS-Evangelist
Despite my tag (or because of my tag), I don´t agree here
I like that there are a difference between PS4 and XB1, in ways on how we can interact with games. The whole GFX battle is basically a wash, this coming gen will be about immersion (see stuff like Google glasses and Occulus Rift).
Sonys bet is in a way good for hardcore gamers (powerful hardware, attractive pricepoint) but Sony made a "traditional" upgrade. Meaning that they are not offering something "new" except the power upgrade. Everything else is done with add ons.
In order to make something standard, you have to bundle it in.
MS bet is trancending the traditional evolution/upgrade path. Yes, they have upgraded the power from previous HW (360) but they have added the possibility of making the games more immersive, the possibility of doing things different than with PS4.
Whos bet will triumph, we have to see.. but MS atleast have its base covered.
If Kinect/motion stuff does not take off, every game that can be done on PS4, can be done on XB1.
But if motion takes off, then the same cannot be said for PS4.. then people are forced to buy the add on.
So we have to see whos bet is the more future proof/ready.
Giant LED? You do realize that small ass LED is probably the same size as the one in the PS4 controller, it is just inside of a opaque white bubble at the top? Led's won't be taking much more power regardless. It's pretty much a moot point.
Feel free to read:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Light-emitting_diode
But if Sony isn't bundling in a motion control option, the exact same situation immediately presents itself. If in the next 2 years Sony sells 15 million PS4 and Microsoft sells 15 million Xbone Ones, why should a developer make a game that won't work on the PS4? Or a game that has a severely downgraded experience on the PS4 due to lack of motion and voice support? They would be cutting their potential audience in half.
The story of the Wii is pretty instructive here. 3rd party developers didn't bother much with the WiiMote, even when the console was utterly dominating the industry. So why will they bother with meaningful Kinect integration, if the Xbox One will in all likelihood NOT dominate the industry?
killer rin
Member
Maybe gigantic was the wrong term to use, but the LED is going to be larger than the one in the 360 due to the fact that it needs to cover more area through a more opaque space. Of course though, LEDs are designed to be power efficient as part of their base technology, so its not going to use much power either way. Was just throwing in my two cents.
If the Kinect continually leaves Microsoft at a price disadvantage, then that's a pretty nasty situation to be in. "Oh the PS4 does everything the Xbox One does, but it's cheaper."
The likelihood of Kinect/motion controls taking off seems kinda low, especially when you consider that Microsoft has little to show off in that area. Their output has mostly been copycat titles of Wii games, but now that Nintendo has mostly abandoned motion controls they won't have anyone to really copy.
I think it might be a different situation if MS had some genuinely exciting and inspiring Kinect stuff to show off at E3. But since they didn't we kinda have to assume that any big Kinect titles are at least a year or two away.....and in that year or two the price difference between the consoles can give Sony a big upper hand. It will be a long time before Microsoft is really able to justify their price with games and software. The mandatory Kinect would make a lot more sense if there were compelling games that use it, but there is nothing to speak of right now. All we have is the faint hope that including it in every box will somehow force developers to use it -- even though that wasn't really the case with the Wii.
Eh, this argument is a bit of red herring. Most Kinect support is likely to continue to be dance/music/sports/fitness games, plus add-on features for conventional titles. None of these are expensive to produce. A moderate installed base of XB1s will be more than sufficient to support them.
I don't think anyone is expecting GTA6 to be a Kinect exclusive.
Different as in something they already done? Kinect is shite kinect 2 will be less shit, i dont like shit.
I wouldn't disagree with this at all. It's exactly what I would suspect. Though I'd note that a $500 console is going to be a tough sell for dance/music/fitness gamers.
If the Kinect is just "add-on features" for conventional games though, then the cost it adds to the console becomes difficult for conventional gamers to justify. But who knows? Microsoft has billions in the bank. At some point they might just decide to eat the extra cost of Kinect and drop the price to wherever Sony is at.
Maximilian E.
AKA MS-Evangelist
On the other hand, Kinect2 is vastly more sensitive and unobtrusive or easier to deal with, than Kinect1 was. All this means that Kinec2 offer bigger possibilities to deliver what Kinect1 promised and then more..
We are dealing with possibilities here and yes, it is up to MS to lead with Kinect and show what can be done and show ways how Kinect2 can improve games/make games more immersive. Not all games benefits from Kinect either..
The price argument will be interesting, MS has ways of stimulating sales. Worst case scenario is that they lower the price, MS can take the hit more than Sony can (if push comes to shove)..
We´ll see but it is waaaay early to dismiss the possibilities of kinect2/motion controls..